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#Post#: 79011--------------------------------------------------
TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not
due to other vehicles.
DIR By: TheParkingmeister
Date: July 1, 2025, 4:20 am
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I have attached the original notice, my appeal and their
response. They sent me the video footage where the camera
operator does a good job of not showing why the vehicle stopped.
But it does show our vehicle entered the box when there was not
sufficient space on the other side to clear the box, however,
the vehicle stopped due to traffic lights for a pedestrian
crossing on the other side of the box with not enough room
between the edge of the box and the traffic lights for the
vehicle to fit. If it wasn't for the lights the vehicle would
have cleared the box without stopping as the traffic was
flowing.
My manager and I, want to know if we can win at a London
Tribunal? I am aware of the discrepancies between what the
regulations say and what the highway code says for box junctions
and have looked at YellowBoxes.co.uk where there are numerous
examples of London Tribunal appeals won for vehicles stopping in
box junctions for reasons other than other vehicles.
Also, how much does the fine go upto? Do I have to attend the
tribunal or do they assess my written appeal? I have only really
dealt with councils and POPLA previously and they are idiots...
inconsistent idiots. I'd like to think I wouldn't be dealing
with that level of incompetence at London Tribunals.
Any help and advice would be much appreciated.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 79014--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: July 1, 2025, 4:30 am
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Post the video.
#Post#: 79018--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: July 1, 2025, 5:13 am
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My manager and I, want to know if we can win at a London
Tribunal?
Do I have to attend the tribunal or do they assess my written
appeal?
Who knows for the first question, we need to see the video.
No for the second because appeals are held remotely in the main
and no again because PCN-wise this has nothing to do with you,
the PCN was addressed to and liability lies with the registered
keeper. So, who is the registered keeper, the company to which
the PCN is addressed or is the vehicle perhaps leased/hired and
therefore the registered keeper another entity?
So:
The video;
The VRM;
Who is the registered keeper?
Please.
#Post#: 79022--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: TheParkingmeister
Date: July 1, 2025, 5:39 am
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The vehicle is in the possesion of the registered keeper, the
haulage company, that I am an employee of.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 79034--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 1, 2025, 6:15 am
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The offence is one of entering the box and having to stop within
it due to the presence of stationary vehicles. So we need to see
the video to make sure of the strength of your case.
This assumes your manager can act on behalf of the registered
keeper, (the company). As HCA points out, only the registered
keeper can submit reps, but can authorise a person to act on
their behalf. Liability for payment if the case is lost remains
with the keeper.
#Post#: 79044--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: TheParkingmeister
Date: July 1, 2025, 6:35 am
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> The offence is one of entering the box and having to stop
within it due to the presence of stationary vehicles. So we need
to see the video to make sure of the strength of your case.
>
> This assumes your manager can act on behalf of the registered
keeper, (the company). As HCA points out, only the registered
keeper can submit reps, but can authorise a person to act on
their behalf. Liability for payment if the case is lost remains
with the keeper.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi, the video should be attached to my last reply as a .rar, I
couldn't upload a video file. Is there a better way to upload it
on here?
#Post#: 79046--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: July 1, 2025, 6:37 am
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--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> You can also upload videos to YouTube, Vimeo etc. and to
Google Drive etc (please avoid using
HTML https://wetransfer.com/
as
most members won't bother downloading zip files, you need to use
a website that allows files to be viewed in a browser).
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 79051--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: TheParkingmeister
Date: July 1, 2025, 6:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DWMB2 link ---
>
> [quote author=cp8759 link=topic=3.msg3#msg3 date=1686746268]
> You can also upload videos to YouTube, Vimeo etc. and to
Google Drive etc (please avoid using
HTML https://wetransfer.com/
as
most members won't bother downloading zip files, you need to use
a website that allows files to be viewed in a browser).
>
--- End Quote ---
[/quote]
Okay thanks.
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x_sYqfvmed3hbh8zU3jA8GIbNC7KX46Q/view
#Post#: 79056--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: MrChips
Date: July 1, 2025, 7:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the video.
As you already seem to be aware, it's a box junction offence
only if your stop is due to stationary vehicles. The video does
not show why you stopped so there is no evidence of an offence.
Your explanation is also credible as when the camera angle does
adjust, one can see the signalled pedestrian crossing exactly
where you stopped, plus the HGV in front of you seemed to move
off screen at too great a pace for it to have stopped just off
screen where you seem to have stopped.
All in all, I'd definitely take this one all the way and would
give you a close to 100% chance of winning assuming you follow
the procedure and present your argument coherently for the
tribunal.
Re following procedure, the key one in the short term is that
any representations to TFL are sent by (or on behalf of) the
entity to whom the PCN is addressed.
Thereafter, don't miss any deadlines!
#Post#: 79061--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: July 1, 2025, 7:31 am
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It's appeal or pay, reps have been made and rejected.
So, entering and stopping within the box is accepted. The next
issue is, why?
It's clear that the order of events could not have been that the
vehicle ahead stopped for the lights then you stopped behind
them, there isn't room.
So, IMO the only scenarios are that you stopped for the lights
or that the lights are a red or green herring and in fact you
stopped because you were prevented by the vehicle ahead which
had stopped for its own reasons beyond the lights.
IMO, there isn't definitive evidence one way or the other so
it's about accumulating circumstantial evidence. Was the woman
on the footway heading to the crossing, would the lights have
changed so promptly(these are pedestrian-activated and so have a
default green phase)? Unfortunately, the road ahead of your
vehicle can't be seen again until well after you stopped. Given
the period you were stationary, if you'd stopped because the
vehicle ahead was stationary then you would have set off
together and we might have seen it which would undermine your
argument. If for the lights then we'd expect to see a clear road
immediately ahead. Sadly, we don't see the road ahead.
Balance of probabilities - your cab stopped short of the
crossing. Likelihood that this was coincidentally a few feet
behind the stationary vehicle ahead v you stopped there because
it's where a vehicle stopping for someone on the crossing would
stop. Another factor is the phasing of the lights. If you were
stopped there but the vehicle ahead wasn't then they went from
red to green to red in the time you were stationary, 14 seconds
est. It's plausible.
Just some thoughts.
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