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#Post#: 78931--------------------------------------------------
Code 52m Maze Hill SE10 / Tom Smith Cl SE10 - Failing to comply
with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles
DIR By: Ujk
Date: June 30, 2025, 11:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Received a PCN for getting entering into Maze Hill SE10 / Tom
Smith Cl SE10. There is a sign on the A206 road about 50 yards
before the right turn however, that sign does not show any
timing. Please see attached photo. Restriction is lifted at
19:00 and the PCN I received is showing time of 18:58:59. I also
checked on google maps and there is no sign appearing in the
maps which means that sign has been active recently. Do you
think I can appeal on the ground that there should at least be a
grace period of 5-10 minutes. To be honest, clock in my car was
showing 19:00 and cross it assuming I should be fine. Any help
would be much appreciated, I need to appeal as today is the last
day.
Please see attached PCN and evidence provided by the Greenwich
council
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 78939--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 52m Maze Hill SE10 / Tom Smith Cl SE10 - Failing to
comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles
DIR By: Ujk
Date: June 30, 2025, 12:18 pm
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I would appreciate any response here please. Just an added
information. Small advanced sign post on A206 road just before
the right turn into Maze Hill road is literally before the
traffic light and has no time restriction mentioned. Sign is
also broken. In my view at this stage it is impossible to focus
on the sign on the left hand side when the traffic ahead is
slowing down to stop at the traffic light and this sign could
easily be missed. Once you enter the Maze Hill road, there is no
warning sign at the entrance of the road and first time the sign
appears is actual restricted sign and there is no side road to
avoid it from entering the Maze Hill road till the actual
restricted sign post. See attached photo of advanced sign. Would
appreciate views if the grounds are sufficient to over turn the
PCN
[attachimg=1]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 78941--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 52m Maze Hill SE10 / Tom Smith Cl SE10 - Failing to
comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: June 30, 2025, 12:27 pm
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The signs are clear here. Did you check your clock before you
drove through?
Greenwich seems to mess up a lot of tribunal appeals so it may
be worth having a go at this.
Also our member Hippo may have other info.
#Post#: 78945--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 52m Maze Hill SE10 / Tom Smith Cl SE10 - Failing to
comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles
DIR By: Ujk
Date: June 30, 2025, 12:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I did and my clock was clearly showing past 19:00 hence I
crossed it.
#Post#: 78948--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 52m Maze Hill SE10 / Tom Smith Cl SE10 - Failing to
comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: June 30, 2025, 12:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The PCN time is 18:59 so could just say it falls within
triviality - what we call de minimis - as that time could be one
second before 19:00 (although you went through at 18:59:00...)
HTML https://i.ibb.co/DDYx0vyV/gr.gif
#Post#: 78956--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 52m Maze Hill SE10 / Tom Smith Cl SE10 - Failing to
comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: June 30, 2025, 1:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Stamfordman, submit reps on the basis of de
minimis. However, they will inevitably reject, so you would need
to stand your ground and take them to London Tribunals. This
means taking the double-or-quits gamble, because the discount
option is not available at LT.
#Post#: 78970--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 52m Maze Hill SE10 / Tom Smith Cl SE10 - Failing to
comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: June 30, 2025, 3:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
There is notable similar case (which I cannot recall in detail
:( - but someone here may well recall it) involving de minimis
timings, where the Adjudicator in allowing an appeal said
something to the effect of not being able to expect cars to be
fitted with atomic clocks.
#Post#: 78979--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 52m Maze Hill SE10 / Tom Smith Cl SE10 - Failing to
comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: June 30, 2025, 4:07 pm
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To be honest, clock in my car was showing 19:00 and cross it
assuming I should be fine.
Exactly. So pl don't dance around this with references to
non-statutory warning signs etc.
I knew the restriction. I checked my car clock which showed 7pm
hence I drove through. I suppose I have to accept that the
council's clock, which reads to the second and is no doubt
calibrated by reference to an atomic clock or space satellite,
showed that I crossed 1 minute before the prohibition ceased.
If the Royal Borough of Greenwich thinks that a penalty of up to
£160 is a proportionate and proper response to my events then
they need to take a long look at themselves. (optional)
The principle of de minimis clearly applies, demanding is
penalty is neither fair nor proportionate and therefore a
penalty is not owed.
#Post#: 78986--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 52m Maze Hill SE10 / Tom Smith Cl SE10 - Failing to
comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: June 30, 2025, 5:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Atomic clock case but no need to cite it in reps. We have other
such cases.
-------
218015398A
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being
stopped in a restricted area outside a school when prohibited.
The alleged contravention occurred in Clovelly Avenue at 4.14pm
on 8 March 2018.
I have looked at the CCTV footage and also the site images
submitted by the Council. These show that Mr Byanouni's vehicle
was stopped on entrance markings in front of Colindale Primary
School. They also show that there is a sign at the location
warning motorists that there is no stopping on the entrance
markings between 2.45pm and 4.15pm Mondays to Fridays.
Mr Byanouni appeals because he says that he stopped to pick up
his children from school. He says that he is well aware of the
restrictions and that the clock in his car showed the time of
4.15pm. The Council says that its clock is calibrated according
to the Atomic Clock, ensuring 100% accuracy. The CCTV timing
shows the vehicle stopping at 4:14:18.
I accept the evidence of Mr Byanouni that the clock in his car
showed the time of 4.15pm. I find that the alleged contravention
did not occur. There must be some application of common sense.
Motorists cannot all be expected to wear time pieces calibrated
to the exact second according to the Atomic Clock. A motorist
reading an ordinary watch will not be able to know the time
calculated to the exact second.
#Post#: 78990--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 52m Maze Hill SE10 / Tom Smith Cl SE10 - Failing to
comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: June 30, 2025, 5:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> Atomic clock case but no need to care it in reps. We have
other such cases.
>
> -------
>
> 218015398A
>
> This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being
stopped in a restricted area outside a school when prohibited.
The alleged contravention occurred in Clovelly Avenue at 4.14pm
on 8 March 2018.
>
> I have looked at the CCTV footage and also the site images
submitted by the Council. These show that Mr Byanouni's vehicle
was stopped on entrance markings in front of Colindale Primary
School. They also show that there is a sign at the location
warning motorists that there is no stopping on the entrance
markings between 2.45pm and 4.15pm Mondays to Fridays.
>
> Mr Byanouni appeals because he says that he stopped to pick up
his children from school. He says that he is well aware of the
restrictions and that the clock in his car showed the time of
4.15pm. The Council says that its clock is calibrated according
to the Atomic Clock, ensuring 100% accuracy. The CCTV timing
shows the vehicle stopping at 4:14:18.
>
> I accept the evidence of Mr Byanouni that the clock in his car
showed the time of 4.15pm. I find that the alleged contravention
did not occur. There must be some application of common sense.
Motorists cannot all be expected to wear time pieces calibrated
to the exact second according to the Atomic Clock. A motorist
reading an ordinary watch will not be able to know the time
calculated to the exact second.
>
--- End Quote ---
The Citizen watch on my wrist is synchronised with the Frankfurt
time signal every day, and my old Casio watch with the UK time
signal which used to be transmitteed from Rugby, but is now up
north somewhere. This morning, I looked at them both, and there
is about 1/2 second between them. However, I don't think I
should look at a wristwatch when I approach a restriction sign
with times on it ! As far as I know, there are no cars on sale
that use radio signals to keep the car clock to time. Most car
clocks can keep fairly good time, but can gain or lose, and one
has to ocasionally correct the time before driving off.
These PCNs that have a time very close to the restriction time
are just venal money-grubbing highway robbery. I have a book of
railway cartoons, and one of them is a mid-Victorian train with
a railway director sitting on the buffer beam with Dick Turpin
looking on and saying " Ah, doing a bit in my line, eh" ? To
which the railway director replies, "you were hanged, but we rob
by Act of Parliament".
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