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#Post#: 78545--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Dr Tripwire
Date: June 27, 2025, 10:53 am
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--- Quote from: ManxTom link ---
>
> [quote author=Dr Tripwire link=topic=7012.msg78497#msg78497
date=1751031498]
>
>
> ... To reiterate, my post is not about me being guilty or
innocent - I have enough of a moral grounding to admit my
wrongdoings if that is indeed the case - at this moment, I do
not consider that what little evidence has been provided is
enough to verify that the offence took place and would like
more.
>
> It may have been a case of me driving as they have claimed, I
find it hard to believe but maybe I did commit the offence that
they have stated but for whatever reason, I have no recollection
of it. If I am provided further evidence (video evidence) that
clearly shows me driving without due care and attention, I won't
be making any efforts to try and convince anyone otherwise -
however I am not willing to pay a fine, receive penalty points
etc on the basis of the information I have so far.
>
--- End Quote ---
As others have already said, you aren't legally entitled to see
any evidence against you until you've actually been charged, and
you haven't been charged yet. Once you are charged the options
of a course or conditional offer of a fixed penalty will be off
the table and you are headed to court. If you lose at court it
will be much more expensive for you than what is currently on
offer.
If when you get to court they provide video evidence of you
committing the offence as charged, you will have fought and lost
an expensive battle on a (misguided?) point of principle.
Your choice.
[Having said that, I'm aware from one of your later posts that
the constabulary in question appears to invite requests for
further evidence on traffic offences - so who knows. Maybe
they'll let you see the evidence and you'll be in a better
position to decide]
[/quote]
[member=691]ManxTom[/member]
No - the attachments are
1) a discussion with an online agent through their live chat
system -
(
HTML https://www.norfolk.police.uk/rqo/request/ri/request-information/)<br
/>- you'll see in the chat (screenshot) that I asked how I can
get
information relating to the driving offence and they advised me
to raise a Subject Access Request
2) the request I raised for evidence to be provided
The series of events was that I received the NIP, completed the
form that was included to confirm that I was the driver at the
time of the alleged offence. A few days later, I received the
conditional offer of a fixed penalty / driver retraining course
offer - they didn't invite me to request further information, I
took it upon myself to seek further information.
You're right about one thing though - this has boiled my blood
and has become a point of principal - I've been tempted to just
give in a pay the fine/attend a course but then, should I go
around and hand out cash to strangers in the street too? Because
that's what this feels like (in some respects)...all said and
done, I'd really like to weigh up my options but I will consider
the sensible option of paying off the mafia (through gritted
teeth)
#Post#: 78547--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: 666
Date: June 27, 2025, 10:59 am
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--- Quote from: Dr Tripwire link ---
>
>
>
> I think the undertaking topic is (to a certain degree) a moot
point as it is not officially an offence from my understanding -
unless it has been done in a way that suggests driving without
due care and attention - again...I'm not saying that I didn't
undertake, I just don't remember. However, how the incident has
been described simply doesn't describe my driving style -
especially the before and after the alleged undertake.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
You're right, but you haven't been charged with "undertaking"
(slang for overtaking on the left). The charge is careless
driving, which is defined as driving which "falls below what
would be expected of a competent and careful driver."
Overtaking on the left is forbidden in the Highway Code, which
arguably is the minimum standard "expected of a competent and
careful driver".
#Post#: 78553--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: June 27, 2025, 11:12 am
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I didn't think you could make a subject access request in
respect of prospective criminal proceedings? (If you think
about it it's fairly obvious why)
Where in Norfolk did this alleged offence occur? (I live there
so I'm curious what stretch of road it is)
I suppose you will just have to wait until you here back from
them. But I suspect that before they reply you will have passed
the deadline for accepting a course or a fixed penalty and
points. You will probably have to decide on a course of action
before you get theri reply - if they reply at all.
#Post#: 78554--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: June 27, 2025, 11:18 am
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There are some things that can constitute careless driving, and
some that invariably will constitute careless driving. Those
that can tend to be careless when done without adequate care.
Those that will tend to be considered careless in any
circumstances.
As part of the IAM advanced motorcycle test, riders are expected
to filter through traffic carefully when appropriate. Filtering
is both undertaking and overtaking at the same time. The whole
IAM thing is based on Roadcraft - the police advanced driving
manual (albeit translated into English) - so if anything, the
expected disciplines are higher than the standard expected of
the average careful and competent rider.
Obviously, that does not mean that a driver undertaking a police
car in a campervan is a better driver than the driver of the
police car, or that undertaking would never constitute careless
driving, but it does appear to call into question any assertion
that undertaking invariably constitutes careless driving.
edit: As some may be aware, I am not a fan of undue brevity, and
therefore perhaps not best placed to read between the single
line of those who for some reason are, but if I were to briefly
describe an incident involving a f*ck off great 3 tonne
campervan bearing down on me at great speed, swerving into the
inside lane, undertaking me, and then cutting me up swerving
back into lane 2 in front of me, I think that I would use a more
descriptive term than "vehicle bearing the VRM #########" to
describe said campervan. That said, if I had contributed to the
incident by cutting up the campervan in the first instance, then
I might be inclined to omit as much detail as possible.
#Post#: 78565--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: June 27, 2025, 11:57 am
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I suspect that the officer involved hasn’t produced a witness
statement yet (they are often only prepared from notes if the
case goes to court) so what the OP has been provided with may be
the briefest of summaries of what the officer says happened.
#Post#: 78612--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Freecall
Date: June 28, 2025, 2:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Dr Tripwire link ---
>
>
> .......this has boiled my blood and has become a point of
principal
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Sounds expensive.
#Post#: 78614--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Dr Tripwire
Date: June 28, 2025, 2:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ManxTom link ---
>
> I didn't think you could make a subject access request in
respect of prospective criminal proceedings? (If you think
about it it's fairly obvious why)
>
> Where in Norfolk did this alleged offence occur? (I live
there so I'm curious what stretch of road it is)
>
> I suppose you will just have to wait until you here back from
them. But I suspect that before they reply you will have passed
the deadline for accepting a course or a fixed penalty and
points. You will probably have to decide on a course of action
before you get theri reply - if they reply at all.
>
--- End Quote ---
That's what was advised so I've followed the suggestion...
That all said, I thought about what you said about the response
from the police probably not coming before the deadline, meaning
I'll incur court costs unless I choose the course or fixed
penalty and am going to opt for the course (begrudgingly) and
I'll be fitting dash cams imminently.
This all took place somewhere around the Orwell Bridge in
Ipswich (I know the correspondence says Norwich but it's
actually Norfolk and Suffolk constabulary Central Ticket Office
who is the point of contact.
#Post#: 78622--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: June 28, 2025, 4:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> "...and am going to opt for the course"
--- End Quote ---
I think that's a wise decision. It may make your blood boil but
it will almost certainly save you a shedload of cash.
I am not at all convinced that the police will enter into any
further discussion with you over this. They have no reason to.
The advice from the "chatbot" to raise an SAR is incorrect. You
can raise one but, as above, the police are not obliged to
comply with such a request if it involves potential criminal
proceedings.
Thanks for letting us know what you have decided.
#Post#: 78625--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Mayhem007
Date: June 28, 2025, 5:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
My first thought, was the police vehicle hogging the middle
lane. My second thought, was probably not because you moved back
into the second lane because there was another vehicle in lane
1, which means the police vehicle had the right to be in that
lane, as he was presumably overtaking a vehicle in lane 1.
Unfortunately, even if the police vehicle is in the wrong, it is
not a get out for yourself. However, what I have said may
refresh your memory as to what happended.
I would think very seriously about what you are going to do. Be
totally honest to yourself and you will come up with the right
decision
#Post#: 79497--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Korting
Date: July 4, 2025, 3:25 am
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I was about to post this yesterday but had a problem with my
internet.
There is something that doesn’t sit right with me.
The O/P says he would have been driving a caravan and I presume
the road was either a dual carriageway or a motorway. In either
case there are speed limits which I believe is 60MPH.
Unless the police car was driving very slowly, he’d have to do
some speed to approach him very fast.
What would be the reason the police would refuse to show any
dash cam evidence, I know they’re not obliged to but it cant be
that difficult or time consuming to send it.
For all we know it could have been a plate misread.
I understand that the O/P is going to take the course, My blood
would be boiling as well.
I’m getting the impression that Police can report just about
anyone knowing that the chance of it getting to court are slim
and its therefore win-win for the Police
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