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DIR Return to: Speeding and other criminal offences
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#Post#: 78492--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Dr Tripwire
Date: June 27, 2025, 8:24 am
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--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> [quote]it seems to me that I am being asked to pay for
something that I don't think I did and that the only way I can
see evidence of the alleged offence is to take my case to trial
--- End Quote ---
You don' have to take it to trial. If you see the evidence and
accept he allegation, you can plead guilty. But by then the
option of a course or fixed penalty will no longer be available.
The evidence is unlikely to be much more than a statement from
the officer explaining what you have summarised.
It seems they've told you what you have allegedly done. The ball
is in your court. You either accept any offer they may make or
have the matter dealt with in court.
[/quote]
Is an officer's written statement of events considered as
adequate evidence for a driving offence? It would be surprising
to hear that this is all that it takes, given that in this day
and age, police vehicles will most certainly have dashcams
fitted and could provide video evidence.
#Post#: 78497--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Dr Tripwire
Date: June 27, 2025, 8:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: disgruntchelt link ---
>
> [quote author=andy_foster link=topic=7012.msg78482#msg78482
date=1751027872]
> [quote author=disgruntchelt link=topic=7012.msg78461#msg78461
date=1751023952]
> If you freely admit you would routinely undertake a vehicle
travelling slower than you, you probably did it.
>
--- End Quote ---
Can you point out where the OP freely admitted to routinely
undertaking other vehicles? I seem to have missed that bit.
[/quote]
“the offence described just doesn't sound like something I would
have done, especially as I am aware of the stopping abilities of
my 3 ton vehicle and I would assume that the vehicle in question
was an unmarked police car.”
Maybe freely admit is a bit of a stretch but the op didn’t say
they didn’t undertake. I read this as the OP saying it must have
been an unmarked car as they would remember undertaking a police
car and due to the size of their vehicle they wouldn’t leave it
too late ti change lanes.
Of course they could have been saying they never undertake as
they always drive as if every other vehicle on the road is an
unmarked cop car.
Either way unless the OP now thinks it’s a case of mistaken
identity that they can clear up before it gets to court (ie it
wasn’t their van at that location at that time) it will probably
be cheaper to do the course.
[/quote]
I think you're making a few too many assumptions here - my post
is not about admitting or denying any offence - it's about the
possibilities of getting what I would call "Proper evidence" -
not just a vague 2 sentence explanation that doesn't provide
enough information.
My remark about it being an unmarked police car simply means
that had I approached a marked police vehicle at speed, I would
have very clearly seen it and remembered doing it - more to the
point, if anyone decides to approach a marked police vehicle
from the rear (or otherwise) at speed, they deserve what they
get.
Also there's no mention of mistaken identity in my post???
To reiterate, my post is not about me being guilty or innocent -
I have enough of a moral grounding to admit my wrongdoings if
that is indeed the case - at this moment, I do not consider that
what little evidence has been provided is enough to verify that
the offence took place and would like more.
It may have been a case of me driving as they have claimed, I
find it hard to believe but maybe I did commit the offence that
they have stated but for whatever reason, I have no recollection
of it. If I am provided further evidence (video evidence) that
clearly shows me driving without due care and attention, I won't
be making any efforts to try and convince anyone otherwise -
however I am not willing to pay a fine, receive penalty points
etc on the basis of the information I have so far.
#Post#: 78499--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: 666
Date: June 27, 2025, 8:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Dr Tripwire link ---
>
>
> Is an officer's written statement of events considered as
adequate evidence for a driving offence? It would be surprising
to hear that this is all that it takes, given that in this day
and age, police vehicles will most certainly have dashcams
fitted and could provide video evidence.
>
--- End Quote ---
If you wish to challenge the officer's statement, he can be
cross-examined in court. You can give your version of events.
The court then decides.
However, that may not arise. As you say, they may well have
video.
#Post#: 78501--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: June 27, 2025, 8:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Is an officer's written statement of events considered as
adequate evidence for a driving offence?
--- End Quote ---
Yes. Whether it is sufficient so that he Magistrates can be sure
that the offence was committed is for them to decide.
You can debate this all you like but the truth of the matter is
that you will not be provided with any formal evidence unless
the matter goes to court. Then you will be provided with the
evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you. If they do
not intend to rely on video evidence (assuming there is any,
which is by no means a given) it will not be provided.
#Post#: 78505--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Dr Tripwire
Date: June 27, 2025, 8:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ManxTom link ---
>
> [quote author=Dr Tripwire link=topic=7012.msg78434#msg78434
date=1751014845]
>
>
>
> ...In this case, the vehicle displaying registration mark
###### was found to fast approach a police vehicle travelling in
Lane 2. When very close to the rear of the police vehicle, the
subject vehicle then moved into Lane 1 to undertake, before
quickly cutting back into Lane 2 without leaving a safe distance
between themselves and the police vehicle.
>
> Additional information - I was in a campervan which I don't
drive any faster than 60mph where permitted, I had my dog asleep
by my side and had left home with ample time to get to my
destination - the offence described just doesn't sound like
something I would have done, especially as I am aware of the
stopping abilities of my 3 ton vehicle and I would assume that
the vehicle in question was an unmarked police car.
>
--- End Quote ---
Does this sound like something you would have done?
If you are convinced that you would never drive like that you
might want to consider 'phoning them and politely asking what
evidence they have. If they have photographic or video evidence
you could ask them if they could confirm whether the vehicle
matches your camper van. It could be a mis-read number plate or
clone. Or it might be your camper van.
[Edit: As others have already explained you aren't entitled to
see any evidence at this stage, but that doesn't stop you asking
if they could help you]
If there is no video or photographic evidence it will be your
word against one or two police officers.
Before you 'phone them see what others here advise. There is a
risk that if you do 'phone them they will interpret it as a
challenge against the allegation and you'll end up at trial
anyway.
[/quote]
I would be the first to admit it if there was a chance of me
doing this - the only thing that comes to mind is that either
the vehicle in question moved into lane 2 without seeing that I
was already in lane 2 and travelling faster than it and as a
result I moved into lane 1 - what is not clear from the
information provided is whether I did actually undertake or not
In this case, the vehicle displaying registration mark ######
was found to fast approach a police vehicle travelling in Lane
2. When very close to the rear of the police vehicle, the
subject vehicle then moved into Lane 1 to undertake, before
quickly cutting back into Lane 2 without leaving a safe distance
between themselves and the police vehicle..
I genuinely don't recall this supposed event - if it happened, I
haven't remembered it happening and would accept that fault and
whatever penalty is applied.
#Post#: 78506--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Dr Tripwire
Date: June 27, 2025, 8:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: 666 link ---
>
> [quote author=Dr Tripwire link=topic=7012.msg78492#msg78492
date=1751030675]
>
> Is an officer's written statement of events considered as
adequate evidence for a driving offence? It would be surprising
to hear that this is all that it takes, given that in this day
and age, police vehicles will most certainly have dashcams
fitted and could provide video evidence.
>
--- End Quote ---
If you wish to challenge the officer's statement, he can be
cross-examined in court. You can give your version of events.
The court then decides.
However, that may not arise. As you say, they may well have
video.
[/quote]
I've put in a request for information as directed by one of
their agents -
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 78519--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: June 27, 2025, 9:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> I've put in a request for information as directed by one of
their agents -
--- End Quote ---
EDIT: Sorry if you saw my earlier answer asking what you want. I
missed your attachment.
How do you know this evidence exists?
I doubt very much whether the police will comply with your
request even if it does. Video evidence is notoriously difficult
to secure even in the event of a trial.
To gather this evidence will cost the police time and money and
the idea of a fixed penalty is that it saves them and you both
of those.
I wish you luck but I believe your request will fall on deaf
ears. But do let us know what happens so that we can advise
others.
#Post#: 78536--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: June 27, 2025, 10:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=6069]Dr Tripwire[/member] - so this is from Norfolk &
Suffolk Constabularies and they actually invite you to ask for
evidence after you've recieved the options letter?
My understanding is that that is very unusual, but Norfolk &
Suffolk are also unususal in that they allow you to nominate
yourself online - most constabularies insist on return of the
signed paper nomination if you name yourself.
[Edited so it now makes sense!]
#Post#: 78539--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Dr Tripwire
Date: June 27, 2025, 10:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> [quote]I've put in a request for information as directed by
one of their agents -
--- End Quote ---
EDIT: Sorry if you saw my earlier answer asking what you want. I
missed your attachment.
How do you know this evidence exists?
I doubt very much whether the police will comply with your
request even if it does. Video evidence is notoriously difficult
to secure even in the event of a trial.
To gather this evidence will cost the police time and money and
the idea of a fixed penalty is that it saves them and you both
of those.
I wish you luck but I believe your request will fall on deaf
ears. But do let us know what happens so that we can advise
others.
[/quote]
No problem - I don't know if the (video) evidence exists - I
only assume that it does and hope that they would provide it to
me. That said, re-reading the statement, I cannot see how the
sparse information that has been provided would be enough to
lead to prosecution - only under circumstances where a vehicle
has moved into a lane that I'm already in would I have been
likely to have approached it at a higher speed than it was
travelling. Additionally, I'm particularly careful when driving
my campervan - as mentioned, it's 3+ tonnes and doesn't slow
down as efficiently as a normal car due to it's mass - I'm aware
of things like this enough so to not drive in a way that would
increase the potential for an accident. Furthermore, while my
dog is secured in a harness that connects to the seatbelt, I
absolutely wouldn't want any harm to come to him - so extra
caution is applied when he is in a vehicle with me.
There's also a lack of clarity around the undertaking statement
- did I undertake or didn't I? It doesn't say either way. Did I
move back into lane 2 leaving very little distance between my
vehicle and the police vehicle - me being in front or behind it?
If I did undertake, I would want to see the speed that the
police vehicle was doing at the time of the undertaking and my
moving back into lane 2 (IF I did undertake and move back into
lane 2) as I wouldn't have done so leaving insufficient space
between the 2 vehicles - there is a potential for the police
vehicle to have sped up after I had undertaken - resulting in my
not leaving a safe distance between vehicles.
I think the undertaking topic is (to a certain degree) a moot
point as it is not officially an offence from my understanding -
unless it has been done in a way that suggests driving without
due care and attention - again...I'm not saying that I didn't
undertake, I just don't remember. However, how the incident has
been described simply doesn't describe my driving style -
especially the before and after the alleged undertake.
I'll certainly update once I know more - I'll also write to the
address that I have in the correspondence as a back up to the
online request that I've made.
#Post#: 78540--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: June 27, 2025, 10:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Dr Tripwire link ---
>
>
>
> ... To reiterate, my post is not about me being guilty or
innocent - I have enough of a moral grounding to admit my
wrongdoings if that is indeed the case - at this moment, I do
not consider that what little evidence has been provided is
enough to verify that the offence took place and would like
more.
>
> It may have been a case of me driving as they have claimed, I
find it hard to believe but maybe I did commit the offence that
they have stated but for whatever reason, I have no recollection
of it. If I am provided further evidence (video evidence) that
clearly shows me driving without due care and attention, I won't
be making any efforts to try and convince anyone otherwise -
however I am not willing to pay a fine, receive penalty points
etc on the basis of the information I have so far.
>
--- End Quote ---
As others have already said, you aren't legally entitled to see
any evidence against you until you've actually been charged, and
you haven't been charged yet. Once you are charged the options
of a course or conditional offer of a fixed penalty will be off
the table and you are headed to court. If you lose at court it
will be much more expensive for you than what is currently on
offer.
If when you get to court they provide video evidence of you
committing the offence as charged, you will have fought and lost
an expensive battle on a (misguided?) point of principle.
Your choice.
[Having said that, I'm aware from one of your later posts that
the constabulary in question appears to invite requests for
further evidence on traffic offences - so who knows. Maybe
they'll let you see the evidence and you'll be in a better
position to decide]
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