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#Post#: 78413--------------------------------------------------
NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Dr Tripwire
Date: June 27, 2025, 1:54 am
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Hi
I recently received a PCN for driving without due care and
attention.
While in the past, I have inadvertently driven above the speed
limit and received a PCN and have put my hands up to the
offence, in this case I genuinely do not believe the claim by
the police that I drove without due care and attention,
therefore I don't accept the allegation.
I have sent back the form that asks if I was the driver of the
vehicle at the time of the alleged offence to confirm that I
was.
Subsequently, I received a letter giving me three options:
Attend a "driver awareness"course
Pay a fine of £100 and accept 3 points on my licence
Appeal the allegation through the magistrates court
Before I respond to this letter, making my choice, I would like
to see video evidence of the alleged offence as I've not been
provided anything (unlike with speeding offences where you're
given a link to view the photo that the camera captured).
What is the best course of action to take in this instance? I
don't want to accept liability for something I don't think I've
done and certainly not without proof.
I also don't want to appeal this through court without having
proof provided prior to the appeal.
Am I entitled to evidence before I make my decision to take this
to appeal?
Thanks in advance.
#Post#: 78425--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: 666
Date: June 27, 2025, 2:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Dr Tripwire link ---
>
>
>
> Am I entitled to evidence before I make my decision to take
this to appeal?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Short answer, no. You can ask, but the police are not obliged to
provide evidence at this stage, and probably won't.
BTW you won't be "taking it to appeal": there's nothing to
appeal against (yet). You'll be taking it to trial.
#Post#: 78426--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: June 27, 2025, 3:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The only sure way to be provided with evidence is to opt for a
court hearing. Then you will be provided with the evidence the
police intend to rely on to convict you. The police have no
obligation to provide any evidence if you want to accept one of
the other two options, and usually won't. You can ask them if
they will give you an idea of what you are said to have done,
but that's about it.
I don't know whether the police really have used the term
"appeal" but at present you have nothing to appeal against. If
you opt for court you can either plead guilty (if you accept
their evidence) or not guilty (and face a trial).
Even if you plead guilty in court, the cost will be around three
times (as a minimum) the cost of either the course or fixed
penalty. If you are found guilty following a trial you will see
no change out of £1,000.
Have you any idea what this might be about?
As an aside, PCNs are not used for speeding or careless driving
offences.
#Post#: 78429--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Dr Tripwire
Date: June 27, 2025, 3:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: 666 link ---
>
> [quote author=Dr Tripwire link=topic=7012.msg78413#msg78413
date=1751007241]
>
>
> Am I entitled to evidence before I make my decision to take
this to appeal?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Short answer, no. You can ask, but the police are not obliged to
provide evidence at this stage, and probably won't.
BTW you won't be "taking it to appeal": there's nothing to
appeal against (yet). You'll be taking it to trial.
[/quote]
Hi thanks for your reply - apologies, yes I meant taking it to
trial.
What doesn't make sense to me is that in order for me to admit
anything, I need to see proof of the allegation because as it
stands, I truly do not recall anything like what has been
alleged happening.
I understand that if I were to accept one of the first two
options, there would be no need to see evidence of the offence
taking place but surely it is a reasonable request to ask for
evidence before I do so?
#Post#: 78430--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: 666
Date: June 27, 2025, 3:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Dr Tripwire link ---
>
> [quote author=666 link=topic=7012.msg78425#msg78425
date=1751011139]
> [quote author=Dr Tripwire link=topic=7012.msg78413#msg78413
date=1751007241]
>
>
> Am I entitled to evidence before I make my decision to take
this to appeal?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Short answer, no. You can ask, but the police are not obliged to
provide evidence at this stage, and probably won't.
BTW you won't be "taking it to appeal": there's nothing to
appeal against (yet). You'll be taking it to trial.
[/quote]
Hi thanks for your reply - apologies, yes I meant taking it to
trial.
What doesn't make sense to me is that in order for me to admit
anything, I need to see proof of the allegation because as it
stands, I truly do not recall anything like what has been
alleged happening.
I understand that if I were to accept one of the first two
options, there would be no need to see evidence of the offence
taking place but surely it is a reasonable request to ask for
evidence before I do so?
[/quote]
So far as "reasonable" is concerned, we don't make the laws!
FWIW, the whole point of the fixed penalty system is to dispose
of offences without either side incurring the hassle and expense
of a court hearing. It's not designed to accommodate enquiries,
discussions, arguments etc.
As NewJudge has suggested "you can ask them if they will give
you an idea of what you are said to have done, but that's about
it.", so a polite phone call along those lines may help.
#Post#: 78434--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Dr Tripwire
Date: June 27, 2025, 4:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> The only sure way to be provided with evidence is to opt for a
court hearing. Then you will be provided with the evidence the
police intend to rely on to convict you. The police have no
obligation to provide any evidence if you want to accept one of
the other two options, and usually won't. You can ask them if
they will give you an idea of what you are said to have done,
but that's about it.
>
> I don't know whether the police really have used the term
"appeal" but at present you have nothing to appeal against. If
you opt for court you can either plead guilty (if you accept
their evidence) or not guilty (and face a trial).
>
> Even if you plead guilty in court, the cost will be around
three times (as a minimum) the cost of either the course or
fixed penalty. If you are found guilty following a trial you
will see no change out of £1,000.
>
> Have you any idea what this might be about?
>
> As an aside, PCNs are not used for speeding or careless
driving offences.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks - I understand that there would be no need for evidence
of the alleged offence if I am admitting to it - it seems to me
that I am being asked to pay for something that I don't think I
did and that the only way I can see evidence of the alleged
offence is to take my case to trial (not appeal - apologies),
during which time I will have forgone the right to accept the
allegation and will then be faced with court costs. It seems to
me that I am being held over a barrel!
With regard to the information I have been provided so far, this
is the redacted version -
With reference to the enclosed Notice of Intended Prosecution/s.
172, a Police Officer has determined that the offence of Drive a
mechanically propelled vehicle on a road/ in a public place
without due care and attention has been evidenced.
In this case, the vehicle displaying registration mark ######
was found to fast approach a police vehicle travelling in Lane
2. When very close to the rear of the police vehicle, the
subject vehicle then moved into Lane 1 to undertake, before
quickly cutting back into Lane 2 without leaving a safe distance
between themselves and the police vehicle.
Additional information - I was in a campervan which I don't
drive any faster than 60mph where permitted, I had my dog asleep
by my side and had left home with ample time to get to my
destination - the offence described just doesn't sound like
something I would have done, especially as I am aware of the
stopping abilities of my 3 ton vehicle and I would assume that
the vehicle in question was an unmarked police car.
#Post#: 78479--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: June 27, 2025, 7:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> it seems to me that I am being asked to pay for something that
I don't think I did and that the only way I can see evidence of
the alleged offence is to take my case to trial
--- End Quote ---
You don' have to take it to trial. If you see the evidence and
accept he allegation, you can plead guilty. But by then the
option of a course or fixed penalty will no longer be available.
The evidence is unlikely to be much more than a statement from
the officer explaining what you have summarised.
It seems they've told you what you have allegedly done. The ball
is in your court. You either accept any offer they may make or
have the matter dealt with in court.
#Post#: 78480--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: BertB
Date: June 27, 2025, 7:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I guess the question is, regardless of whether you felt it was
safe or non aggressive did you move into lane 1 to undertake a
vehicle and then move back into lane 2 in front of them? The
line for DWDCA is fairly easy to cross and it will be the word
of an officer against yours.
#Post#: 78488--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: Dr Tripwire
Date: June 27, 2025, 8:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: BertB link ---
>
> I guess the question is, regardless of whether you felt it was
safe or non aggressive did you move into lane 1 to undertake a
vehicle and then move back into lane 2 in front of them? The
line for DWDCA is fairly easy to cross and it will be the word
of an officer against yours.
>
--- End Quote ---
If you were to ask me if I did it, my answer is that to the best
of my recollection I didn't do it. Hence wanting to see some
form of evidence - the fact that the police cannot prosecute
without evidence would suggest that they have dashcam footage
they can provide.
#Post#: 78490--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: June 27, 2025, 8:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Dr Tripwire link ---
>
>
>
>
> ...In this case, the vehicle displaying registration mark
###### was found to fast approach a police vehicle travelling in
Lane 2. When very close to the rear of the police vehicle, the
subject vehicle then moved into Lane 1 to undertake, before
quickly cutting back into Lane 2 without leaving a safe distance
between themselves and the police vehicle.
>
> Additional information - I was in a campervan which I don't
drive any faster than 60mph where permitted, I had my dog asleep
by my side and had left home with ample time to get to my
destination - the offence described just doesn't sound like
something I would have done, especially as I am aware of the
stopping abilities of my 3 ton vehicle and I would assume that
the vehicle in question was an unmarked police car.
>
--- End Quote ---
Does this sound like something you would have done?
If you are convinced that you would never drive like that you
might want to consider 'phoning them and politely asking what
evidence they have. If they have photographic or video evidence
you could ask them if they could confirm whether the vehicle
matches your camper van. It could be a mis-read number plate or
clone. Or it might be your camper van.
[Edit: As others have already explained you aren't entitled to
see any evidence at this stage, but that doesn't stop you asking
if they could help you]
If there is no video or photographic evidence it will be your
word against one or two police officers.
Before you 'phone them see what others here advise. There is a
risk that if you do 'phone them they will interpret it as a
challenge against the allegation and you'll end up at trial
anyway.
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