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#Post#: 77228--------------------------------------------------
Littering
By: Danish Date: June 19, 2025, 2:12 pm
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Hi there, so my brother had paid someone 50£ from Facebook
market place to dumb some rubbish. Later after couple of weeks
we had 4 fpn's on my name,my brother, my sister and our landlord
of 500£ each from dartford council for littering rubbish on the
sidwalk. Dartford is like 40 min away from us across the Thames.
The rubbish had amazon letters on all of our names with the
addresses on it and that's how the council has sent the letters
on our names. I appealed it to the council but it's refused and
now we all have given till 30th of this month to pay 500£ each.
Could someone help if how to deal with this please
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 77397--------------------------------------------------
Re: Littering
By: Sander333 Date: June 20, 2025, 10:13 am
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This appears to consider the case in the light of a third party
to the offence. I don’t know whether the person that removed the
waste had a waste carriers licence I think not otherwise you
probably would have been provided with or requested a copy of
the licence details. It looks on the face of it you have handed
Jack the lad your money he/they have dumped the waste and inside
are identifiable details not looking to good. However someone
with greater knowledge may be able to assist in this arena.
#Post#: 77405--------------------------------------------------
Re: Littering
By: mickR Date: June 20, 2025, 11:24 am
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this subject has been brought up before. I may be wrong (yes I
know it would be unusual :) )
but iirc the crucial argument was that they have no evidence
that you deposited the litter only that it could be your litter
and that the offence is for depositing.
I stand to be corrected by more learned members.
#Post#: 77411--------------------------------------------------
Re: Littering
By: 666 Date: June 20, 2025, 11:49 am
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[quote author=mickR link=topic=6893.msg77405#msg77405
date=1750436658]
this subject has been brought up before. I may be wrong (yes I
know it would be unusual :) )
but iirc the crucial argument was that they have no evidence
that you deposited the litter only that it could be your litter
and that the offence is for depositing.
I stand to be corrected by more learned members.
[/quote]
But the offence charged is not the depositing. It is "knowingly"
causing or permitting the depositing.
I'd imagine it would be difficult to prove that all four people
knew, or even to establish which one (or more) of the four
actually commissioned the disposal of the waste.
#Post#: 77413--------------------------------------------------
Re: Littering
By: PallasAthena Date: June 20, 2025, 11:51 am
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The letter you have posted contains your full name and address
and the FPN number and I recommend you remove it and re-post
with those details covered up.
I'm not an expert on this but paying some bloke on Facebook £50
to get rid your household rubbish was a criminal offence unless
he had a Waste Carriers Licence and provided you with details of
his Licence. Section 34 (2A) Environmental Protection Act 1990.
I am guessing that he didn't show a Waste Carriers Licence
because he didn't have one. Then - surprise, surprise - he just
drove to somewhere he couldn't be seen and dumped it on a
pavement, ie Flytipping. (Why didn't you just put it for
collection by the council of the Borough you live in if it was
just household waste?).
The problem for you is that if you use an unlicensed waste
carrier and they dump it somewhere illegally then the people
that generated the rubbish - you and the people who lve in your
household - may be legally liable for the flytipping. Flytipping
is an offence under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 and
Dartford Council's Environmental Enforcement Policy says that
the penalty notice they issue for flytipping is £500, which is
what they have done.
What did you say in your appeal against the Fixed Penalty
Notice? Dartford Council appear to be saying that as there was
evidence of waste originating from four people at the address
each of you are guilty of flytipping so they have issued each of
you with a Penalty Notice. I would point you to section 5 (a)
on page 18 of Dartford's Environmental Enforcement Policy which
says:
"Where waste comes from multiple individuals in the household,
the ‘duty of care’ applies to the individual occupier of the
property, who is arranging the transfer of household waste
produced in/from that property. "
HTML https://www.dartford.gov.uk/downloads/file/2243/environmental-enforcement-policy-november-2023
That suggests to me that only the person who arranged for the
bloke on Facebook to take the household's rubbish away (your
brother) should have been given a penalty notice, not all four
of you. Unfortunately for you normally councils only give you
one opportunity to make 'representations'/appeals and as you
have already done this you are now probably beyond the point
where the council will consider any further apppeals or
representations from you. Did the appeal say it was being made
on behalf of all four of you?
So your options are for each of you to pay the £500 FPN you have
received or any of you who fail to pay will be prosecuted in the
Magistrates Court.
Whether you would have a defence if prosecuted I cannot say.
Others may be able to advise. It would be helpful if you could
post here your appeal to Dartford council and their response
(cover up your name and address, penalty notice number, and any
identifying details) so that we can see what admissions you made
in your appeal.
#Post#: 77468--------------------------------------------------
Re: Littering
By: 666 Date: June 21, 2025, 1:29 am
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[quote author=PallasAthena link=topic=6893.msg77413#msg77413
date=1750438315]
The letter you have posted contains your full name and address
and the FPN number and I recommend you remove it and re-post
with those details covered up.
I'm not an expert on this but paying some bloke on Facebook £50
to get rid your household rubbish was a criminal offence unless
he had a Waste Carriers Licence and provided you with details of
his Licence. Section 34 (2A) Environmental Protection Act 1990.
I am guessing that he didn't show a Waste Carriers Licence
because he didn't have one. Then - surprise, surprise - he just
drove to somewhere he couldn't be seen and dumped it on a
pavement, ie Flytipping. (Why didn't you just put it for
collection by the council of the Borough you live in if it was
just household waste?).
[/quote]
But ... the council haven't alleged a breach of section
34(2(a)), but 33z. That requires each of the "accused" to have
knowingly caused or permitted the illegal tipping.
#Post#: 77480--------------------------------------------------
Re: Littering
By: PallasAthena Date: June 21, 2025, 5:24 am
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[quote author=666 link=topic=6893.msg77468#msg77468
date=1750487346]But ... the council haven't alleged a breach of
section 34(2(a)), but 33z. That requires each of the "accused"
to have knowingly caused or permitted the illegal
tipping.[/quote]
The reference to the use of an unlicensed waste carrier was for
OP's information (as that offence may have been committed by the
OP's brother). As I said it appears the FPNs have been issued
for "flytipping", presumably the section 33 (1) (a) offence you
refer to. However it isn't fully clear what the council's
allegation is because the only document we've seen from the
council refers to a "section 33z" offence but there is no
section 33z in the Act. OP hasn't told us what he did or didn't
know at the time the rubbish was disposed of.
The OP may be able to get further advice here if he posts up
redacted copies of
-- His original FPN
-- His appeal to the council
-- Their response
From the point of view of practical advice it seems the OP has
made representations and they have been rejected so Dartford
council may not permit any further representations to be made.
In which case the OP is left with the options of paying the £500
FPN or going to the Magistrates and pleading not guilty but it's
not evident at this point what defence he would offer in court.
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