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#Post#: 75595--------------------------------------------------
Camden - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles; local
buses & cycles only - URGENT
DIR By: markie76
Date: June 9, 2025, 1:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
I've left this PCN a bit late due and I have to submit my
representation tomorrow and your expert help would be much
appreciated.
On 21 May 2025 as it was a nice day I decided to scoot to my
hospital appointment off Tottenham Court Road W1.
From previous trips by bus I knew it had been made into a two
way road but last time I rode along it it was still one way
(10-15 years ago).
After my appointment I turned right into Tottenham Court Road
from Torrington Place and I was behind a transit van positioned
on it's offside rear - my usual position for city traffic riding
as I filter a lot. After the turn, the van's left indicator came
on, but ahead I could see the traffic light on the right was red
and I decided no point to filter past.
When the light turned green we moved off and as the van began
its left turn, my attention was drawn to the two circular side
plates (where you would normally see prohibition plates) on the
traffic light - I thought I could see some blue in the top one
like a mandatory instruction (arrow) - but I concluded it must
be covered up rather than faded and I continued straight ahead.
Google streetview; (
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/tRsQrg5pwRR59qFY9)
HTML https://i.ibb.co/QjFYrrYq/traffic-light-cover.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/QjFYrrYq
The PCN issue date is 27 MAY 2025 and was received on 2 JUN 2025
- My representation deadline is tomorrow 10 JUN 2025 I
believe(?).
PCN;
Page 1
HTML https://i.ibb.co/s9jH8YZ8/TCR-PCN-1-2.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/s9jH8YZ8
Page 2
HTML https://i.ibb.co/J0fkP2P/TCR-PCN-2-2.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/J0fkP2P
Please PM if you would like to see the video but it only starts
at the point the van is already turning into Howland Street -
doesn't show where I was waiting behind it when the light was
red.
A friend works in the area kindly sent me a picture of the
Tottenham Court Road/Howland Street junction from the pavement.
You can see the two traffic lights at that junction have
different, confusing/conflicting information on them - due to my
riding position behind the van, I was only looking at the
traffic light ahead on the right in clear view.
The one nearest the junction shows a blue left turn arrow and a
'bus gate' type sign.
But the other one on the right just has the two white
inserts/covers;
HTML https://i.ibb.co/LXtHfhdd/Junction-lights.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/LXtHfhdd
Would I be correct in thinking that outside of the restricted
bus gate hours, every vehicle driving past this traffic light is
committing a 'failing to drive in the direction shown by an
arrow on a blue sign' offense - unless that blue left turn arrow
turns off or covers up?
I would appreciate your help if you could check the PCN is
correct and ok and the best way for me to appeal this.
I've seen there are possibly two upheld adjudicator cases for
this junction; 2240583109 & 2240129273 sounds like this junction
aswell.
Thanks,
Mark
#Post#: 75601--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles; local
buses & cycles only - URGENT
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: June 9, 2025, 1:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I noted one of those successful appeals here in the second of
the two in this thread. Suggest you go on inadequate signage
citing the cases - is the other one similar.
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/help-with-camden-pcns-two-received-one-minute-apart-on-tottenham-court-road/
#Post#: 75608--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles; local
buses & cycles only - URGENT
DIR By: markie76
Date: June 9, 2025, 2:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> I noted one of those successful appeals here in the second of
the two in this thread. Suggest you go on inadequate signage
citing the cases - is the other one similar.
>
>
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/help-with-camden-pcns-two-received-one-minute-apart-on-tottenham-court-road/
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for your reply.
The other one doesn't mention the actual location at all so
cannot be 100% but from the reason it sounds like it;
"said that he did not knowingly contravene the restriction, as
he did not see the relevant signs."
and
"There does not appear to be any sign on the right hand side of
the road, which although not a requirement, is often installed
in busy streets to assist with visibility."
and
"and the traffic light, which is positioned on the junction
before the sign is far more eye catching."
and
"The blue carriageway for the cycle lane also draws the
motorists attention"
It sounds like the junction with Howland street and similar
situation to myself where I was at the rear of the van turning
left looking at the traffic light on the right where there are
no signs about the bus gate.
For my representation shall I go into detail with pics (I could
revisit the scene in the morning) or just a description and cite
the cases?
Thanks,
Mark
#Post#: 75848--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles; local
buses & cycles only - URGENT
DIR By: markie76
Date: June 10, 2025, 11:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I have drafted the following - your feedback much appreciated;
--- Quote from: markie76 link ---
>
> Dear Sir/Madam,
>
> This is my representation to PCN: X
>
> On 21 May 2025 as it was a nice day, I decided to scoot to my
UCLH appointment. After my appointment I set off navigating the
one way streets between Gower Street and Tottenham Court Road. I
found myself in Torrington Place behind a transit van waiting at
the red traffic light.
> When the traffic light turned green, I turned right into
Tottenham Court Road following the transit van positioned at its
offside rear - my usual position for riding in traffic ready to
filter. Shortly after completing the turn, the van's left turn
indicator came on, but ahead I could see the traffic light on
the right hand side of the road, was red and I decided there is
no point to filter past.
>
> When the traffic light turned green I moved off behind the
rear offside corner of the van. As the van began its left turn
manoeuvre into Howland Road, my attention was drawn to the two
circular side plates on the traffic light on the right hand side
of the road I previously looked at (Picture 1). I thought I
could see some blue in the top one like it was a mandatory
instruction (arrow) – but as I got closer, concluded it must be
covered up rather than faded and there is no mandatory
instruction/instruction in force, so I continued straight ahead.
>
> I did not knowingly contravene the restriction on particular
types of vehicle, but I just did not see any signs relating to
it due to;
> 1. My road position behind the transit van limiting my vision
to the left.
> 2. I was focussing on the traffic light on the right hand side
of the road where there is no restriction sign.
>
> This concern of inadequate signage has already been upheld in
a two tribunal cases;
>
> Case Reference 2240583109, decided by Adjudicator Sean
Stanton-Dunne on 25 March 2025. In that decision, the
adjudicator ruled that the signage was inadequate and stated:
> "In my judgement, the motorist travelling along Tottenham
Court Road will not see the restricted route sign until it is
too late to safely avoid using the route... I am allowing the
appeal because I agree with Mr Khan that the signage is not
adequate for the restricted route."
>
> Case Reference 2240129273, decided by Adjudicator Cordelia
Fantinic on 22 April 202. In that decision, the adjudicator also
concluded the signage was inadequate and stated:
> “I was not able to satisfy myself on the evidence before me,
that the restriction was clearly and adequately signposted”
> Specifically referring to a lack of signage on the right hand
side of the road;
> “There does not appear to be any sign on the right hand side
of the road, which although not a requirement, is often
installed in busy streets to assist with visibility.”
>
> This was not a case of deliberate contravention but an
unavoidable and honest mistake. The last time I rode on
Tottenham Court Road was 12-15 years ago when it was still a
one-way road. I hope Camden Council will take these factors —
including the precedent set in the aforementioned cases into
account when reviewing my representation.
>
> Thank you for your time and consideration.
>
--- End Quote ---
PICTURE 1
HTML https://i.ibb.co/QjFYrrYq/traffic-light-cover.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/QjFYrrYq
#Post#: 75899--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles; local
buses & cycles only - URGENT
DIR By: markie76
Date: June 10, 2025, 3:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Anyone? I've got 2 hours to submit :'(
I may well be prepared to go all the way to tribunal - so
anything in my draft I should omit or include?
Are my grounds 'There was no contravention of a prescribed
order; or failure to comply with an indication; or contravention
of the lorry ban order.'?
#Post#: 75904--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles; local
buses & cycles only - URGENT
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: June 10, 2025, 3:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Post the video.
#Post#: 75912--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles; local
buses & cycles only - URGENT
DIR By: markie76
Date: June 10, 2025, 4:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> Post the video.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry I don't know how and can't find a guide - I PM'd you the
link/details. Worked it out;
HTML https://vimeo.com/1092266741
So at about 1.5 seconds I appear at the rear corner of the van
and I'm checking the two 'circular side plates' (obscured in the
video) on the traffic light on the right hand side of the road
and concluded they're nothing and didn't see any other sign, so
continued straight ahead.
#Post#: 75922--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles; local
buses & cycles only - URGENT
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: June 10, 2025, 4:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I would go for it at London Tribunals, as the cited cases are
very recent and Camden, (as usual) has done absolutely sweet-FA
(nothing) to improve the signage. Why should they when this
location is a nice little earner for them.
#Post#: 75926--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles; local
buses & cycles only - URGENT
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: June 10, 2025, 4:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I just got it...
Keep it simple - you were puzzled to get the PCN but on
reviewing the video see you were unsighted by the van from
seeing the only sign.
You don't feel the signage is adequate and trust Camden will
agree and cancel the PCN on this occasion.
Bear in mind the contravention is nothing to do with the
direction arrows but with the timed bus/cycle gate.
I wouldn't bother citing other cases or saying much more. You
can say something about a hospital appointment.
HTML https://i.ibb.co/JwZz5HWW/cam2-ezgif-com-video-to-gif-converter.gif
#Post#: 75934--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles; local
buses & cycles only - URGENT
DIR By: markie76
Date: June 10, 2025, 5:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> I would go for it at London Tribunals, as the cited cases are
very recent and Camden, (as usual) has done absolutely sweet-FA
(nothing) to improve the signage. Why should they when this
location is a nice little earner for them.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you.
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> I just got it.....
>
--- End Quote ---
OK Thank you.
Amended;
"Dear Sir/Madam,
I was puzzled to receive this PCN but on reviewing the video I
can see that I was unsighted by the van in front of me from
seeing the only sign about a restriction on vehicles of a
certain type at this location.
I was returning from a hospital appointment and have not ridden
in the area for over 10 years when Tottenham Court Road was a
one-way street.
I don't feel the signage is adequate and trust Camden will agree
and cancel the PCN on this occasion.
Thank you for your time and consideration."
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