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#Post#: 76236--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Camden - using a route restricted to certain vehicles
local buses and cycles only
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: June 12, 2025, 10:53 am
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Be aware from that case that Camden may have improved the
signage (with something in advance) but I can't see it makes a
significant difference to what is there just beyond the junction
now.
When looking at tribunal cases you are mostly looking at alleged
contraventions that took place often months ago.
#Post#: 81339--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Camden - using a route restricted to certain vehicles
local buses and cycles only
DIR By: bigred247
Date: July 16, 2025, 3:23 pm
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Hi folks,
I receieved a NOR but have missed the 14 day discount to make an
appeal. I don't see much in the NOR to lend further support for
Camden's case. Any opinions and advice concerning this?
HTML https://i.imgur.com/vZRzINI.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/S6R52vf.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/zzaVkYU.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/IjdGOOv.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/qahB9Ay.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/1AnapKn.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/86C2sJM.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/v7Ve5gJ.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/wznvLtz.jpeg
#Post#: 81341--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Camden - using a route restricted to certain vehicles
local buses and cycles only
DIR By: bigred247
Date: July 16, 2025, 3:54 pm
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I took some more pictures at the location a few weeks back. You
can see the sign but only very late due to the traffic lights
before the junction. The sign surely should be posted before you
reach the junction. There must be many motorists that have been
caught out by this.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/f4hXsvE.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/pefFLv1.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/9ns9Enf.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/ase8w3D.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Vg7OJpD.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/hqyiaEl.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/SbXz4k9.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/lSzsEml.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/MZXXtBi.jpeg
#Post#: 81351--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Camden - using a route restricted to certain vehicles
local buses and cycles only
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 16, 2025, 5:07 pm
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We've seen this location before, and the OP was successful on
the grounds of inadequate signage, but it may have been enhanced
since then.
The traffic lights are a sign just like all other signs, and
here are wrong, because the permanently displayed Left Turn
arrow is a mandatory instruction, yet the Buses Only sign beyond
it is day and time restricted, so the signage here is a complete
mess, frankly. There should be an advance sign with a geographic
map of the junction showing the restriction ahead and its
applicabble days and times, and the traffic lights should be
changed to reflect the Buses Only days and times.
Of course if you decide to register an appeal at London
Tribunals, it will be with the full PCN penalty in play, so
clearly it is your decision and a win is not guranteed the same
as in any other court of law, but I'd say your case is
reasonably strong. You could try searching the London Tribunals
Statutory Register for the location on the PCN to see if there
are any previous cases here and what the result was.
#Post#: 81483--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Camden - using a route restricted to certain vehicles
local buses and cycles only
DIR By: bigred247
Date: July 17, 2025, 11:17 am
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[member=12]Incandescent[/member]
I've missed the 14 day discount period as I've been back and
forth to hospital for my sons treatment. So at this point I
don't think there is any thing to lose?
Thank you for your advice about checking the register (i didn't
know even know it existed and that it was publicly available).
As a result, I managed to find a 3rd case where the appeal was
allowed by the same adjudicator in similar circumstances. I have
posted brief details below:
--- Quote ---
>
> Case reference 2250057339
> Oded Kanzen v London Borough of Camden
>
> Adjudicator Sean Stanton-Dunne
>
> “In my judgement, the motorist travelling along Tottenham
Court Road will not see the restricted route sign with its
controlled hours until it is too late to safely avoid using the
route. There is a blue sign at the traffic lights with a
directional arrow directing traffic to turn to the left but the
PCN was not issued for the alleged contravention of failing to
drive in the direction shown by the arrow on a blue sign. The
blue sign directional arrow is also misleading as the restricted
route beyond the lights can be used outside of controlled
hours.”
--- End Quote ---
So I now have 3 supporting cases which i can mention in my
appeal.
Michael Curland v. Camden (Case 2250121019, decided 11 June
2025)
Khan v. Camden (Case 2240583109, decided 25 March 2025)
Oded Kanzen v Camden (Case 2250057339, decided 08 Apr 2025)
HTML https://i.imgur.com/7DRDYBh.png
Any thoughts?
#Post#: 81485--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Camden - using a route restricted to certain vehicles
local buses and cycles only
DIR By: bigred247
Date: July 17, 2025, 11:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Any feedback on the appeal template below?
[quote]
I respectfully appeal against the above PCN on the grounds that
the alleged contravention did not occur due to inadequate and
misleading signage at the location, as has already been
confirmed by this tribunal in three previous decisions involving
the same road layout and signs.
1. Inadequate Signage at Tottenham Court Road / Howland Street
The signage is placed after the junction, adjacent to a
pedestrian crossing. There is no advance warning, and the blue
directional arrow at the traffic lights misleads drivers into
believing they must turn left, when in fact the straight-ahead
route is only restricted during certain hours. This confusing
setup caused the alleged contravention.
2. Consistent Tribunal Findings – Three Precedents
The following appeal decisions have all found the signage at
this exact location to be non-compliant:
Khan v Camden (Case 2240583109, 25 March 2025)
Adjudicator Sean Stanton-Dunne allowed the appeal, stating:
“The motorist... will not see the restricted route sign until it
is too late... The blue sign directional arrow is also
misleading...”
Curland v Camden (Case 2250121019, 11 June 2025)
The same adjudicator again ruled the signage inadequate. After
an adjournment to allow the Council to supply evidence of
advance signage, Camden withdrew the case and the appeal was
allowed.
Kanzen v Camden (Case 2250057339)
Once more, Adjudicator Stanton-Dunne confirmed:
“The motorist... will not see the restricted route sign... until
it is too late... The blue sign directional arrow is also
misleading...”
These repeated findings demonstrate that the signage at this
junction fails to comply with statutory requirements and creates
avoidable confusion for motorists, resulting in repeated
wrongful enforcement.
3. Additional Personal Context
My wife was driving to collect our son from the UCH Macmillan
Cancer Centre, where he was receiving cancer treatment. Due to
his limited mobility and treatment side effects, driving was the
only viable option. The road layout and misleading signage made
it impossible to comply despite best efforts.
4. Conclusion
In light of:
- Three previous appeal decisions confirming the signage is
inadequate,
- Camden’s failure to remedy or update the signs,
- The misleading blue arrow and absence of proper advance
warning,
- And the essential nature of the journey,
I respectfully ask that this appeal be allowed and the PCN
cancelled.
#Post#: 81500--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Camden - using a route restricted to certain vehicles
local buses and cycles only
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 17, 2025, 1:53 pm
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You need to emphasise the signs cock-up in that the traffic
signals have a mandatory Turn Left arrow, but the PCN was not
issued for this, indicating it is now obsolete, but has not been
removed. The PCN was for passing the Buses Only sign which is
subject to a days and hours restriction on its applicability.
Therefore in view of the incorrect signs, and the lack of any
advance warning you request that the PCN be cancelled and cite
the cases you have listed.
#Post#: 81926--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Camden - using a route restricted to certain vehicles
local buses and cycles only
DIR By: bigred247
Date: July 21, 2025, 8:29 am
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[member=12]Incandescent[/member]
Does this capture it? I have made a reference to the left arrow.
--- Quote ---
>
> I respectfully appeal the above PCN on the basis that the
alleged contravention did not occur due to inadequate,
misleading, and contradictory signage, as confirmed in three
previous decisions by this Tribunal at the exact same location.
>
> 1. Signage Defects – Inconsistent and Misleading
> The alleged contravention occurred at Tottenham Court Road,
just after the junction with Howland Street. The signage at this
location is fundamentally flawed:
>
> - The "Buses and Cycles Only" restriction sign, which is
time-limited, is placed after the junction, giving no adequate
advance warning.
> - The blue directional arrow at the traffic lights is a
mandatory "Turn Left" sign, but the PCN was not issued for
failing to comply with it.
> - This means Camden is enforcing a restriction that directly
contradicts another regulatory sign at the same junction,
creating confusion and uncertainty for motorists.
>
> The presence of an obsolete or misleading Turn Left sign—still
treated as legally binding by its design—renders the signage
layout contradictory and unlawful. The Council’s own CCTV
footage fails to show any advance signage warning drivers of the
time-limited restriction straight ahead.
>
> 2. Tribunal Precedent – Three Cases Confirm Inadequate Signage
> Three appeals have already been allowed at this same location,
all heard by Adjudicator Sean Stanton-Dunne:
>
> >> Khan v Camden (Case 2240583109, 25 March 2025)
> [quote]“In my judgement, the motorist travelling along
Tottenham Court Road will not see the restricted route sign
until it is too late to safely avoid using the route. The
motorist will, of course, see the blue sign at the traffic
lights with the directional arrow directing traffic to turn to
the left but the PCN was not issued for the alleged
contravention of failing to drive in the direction shown by the
arrow on a blue sign. The blue sign directional arrow is also
misleading as the restricted route beyond the lights can be used
outside of controlled hours.”
--- End Quote ---
>> Curland v Camden (Case 2250121019, 11 June 2025)
After a hearing was adjourned for Camden to produce evidence of
advance signage, the Council withdrew, and the adjudicator
allowed the appeal.
>> Kanzen v Camden (Case 2250057339, 08 Apr 2025)
Again, the adjudicator confirmed:
--- Quote ---
> “In my judgement, the motorist travelling along Tottenham
Court Road will not see the restricted route sign with its
controlled hours until it is too late to safely avoid using the
route. There is a blue sign at the traffic lights with a
directional arrow directing traffic to turn to the left but the
PCN was not issued for the alleged contravention of failing to
drive in the direction shown by the arrow on a blue sign. The
blue sign directional arrow is also misleading as the restricted
route beyond the lights can be used outside of controlled
hours.”
--- End Quote ---
These repeated findings show that Camden has failed to remedy
unlawful signage at this location, and continues to issue PCNs
under conditions that do not meet the legal standard for
enforceability.
3. Personal Context – Exceptional Circumstances
On this occasion, my wife was driving to collect our son from
the UCH Macmillan Cancer Centre, where he was receiving
treatment for cancer. His medical condition and limited mobility
made public transport unviable. The poor signage and conflicting
directions made compliance unintentionally impossible.
4. Conclusion – Appeal Should Be Allowed
In light of:
- The contradictory signage, with a still-visible mandatory Turn
Left arrow not enforced,
- The absence of any advance warning of the time-limited
restriction,
- Three Tribunal decisions confirming the signage is
non-compliant,
- Camden’s ongoing failure to correct the layout,
- And the essential medical nature of the journey,
I respectfully request that this appeal be allowed and the PCN
cancelled.
[/quote]
#Post#: 82060--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Camden - using a route restricted to certain vehicles
local buses and cycles only
DIR By: bigred247
Date: July 22, 2025, 3:48 am
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Any thoughts?
#Post#: 82071--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Camden - using a route restricted to certain vehicles
local buses and cycles only
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: July 22, 2025, 4:30 am
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If you are appealing to the tribunal you don't need to include
anything until you see their evidence pack should they contest.
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