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#Post#: 75337--------------------------------------------------
Bromley Code 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited, Cray Ave/Station Ap. St Mary Cray
DIR By: ap823
Date: June 8, 2025, 5:25 am
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Hello,
I believe the box junction is unjustifiably large.
Encroaching into the box as alleged has no chance of impacting
the crossing traffic.
Please advise on the best next steps.
Many thanks in advance
PCN - 2 pages
HTML https://i.imgur.com/HSrSlHz.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/nmGHtey.jpeg
Council Evidence
HTML https://i.imgur.com/QyU1nCn.jpeg
Google streetview
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/MMqNQjqGSKYWM1kX6
Google areal view
HTML https://i.imgur.com/GJQcUCM.jpeg
#Post#: 75338--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Code 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
when prohibited, Cray Ave/Station Ap. St Mary Cray
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: June 8, 2025, 5:32 am
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Please obtain and post up the video, which is the evidence.
Please also post up the How to make represenatations page(s).
Not sure why you believe the box is too large??
#Post#: 75341--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Code 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
when prohibited, Cray Ave/Station Ap. St Mary Cray
DIR By: ap823
Date: June 8, 2025, 6:01 am
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--- Quote from: John U.K. link ---
>
> Please obtain and post up the video, which is the evidence.
>
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://vimeo.com/1091571354
--- Quote from: John U.K. link ---
>
>
> Please also post up the How to make represenatations page(s).
>
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://i.imgur.com/XdCGDy3.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/tPVi4yu.jpeg
--- Quote from: John U.K. link ---
>
>
> Not sure why you believe the box is too large??
>
--- End Quote ---
I believe the area I have marked in red on the image below
cannot be used by crossing vehicles. why does the yellow box
include it?
HTML https://i.imgur.com/N0Wow5g.jpeg
#Post#: 75344--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Code 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
when prohibited, Cray Ave/Station Ap. St Mary Cray
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: June 8, 2025, 6:04 am
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PCN issue: they cannot disregard representations from the date
of the notice. I'll do a draft later.
#Post#: 75348--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Code 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
when prohibited, Cray Ave/Station Ap. St Mary Cray
DIR By: MrChips
Date: June 8, 2025, 6:11 am
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Few thoughts on this:
1) De minimis - you clearly intend to respect the box junction
markings, but just slightly misjudge and stop slightly inside.
Road conditions probably didn't help, with the rain making the
markings more difficult to see. In any case the part you stopped
in isn't a true part of the carriageway junction as it's
protected by a traffic island.
2) Arguably no offence actually committed as the car on the
other side isn't stationary for long before it moves off down
the outside, so if you'd actually travelled through the box at a
modest speed (around 5mph) by the time you'd reached the other
side there would have been space to accommodate your vehicle.
Hence you didn't actually have to stop as a clear exit emerged.
3) The PCN says offence committed at 1150 even their own
evidence shows 1149.
#Post#: 76344--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Code 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
when prohibited, Cray Ave/Station Ap. St Mary Cray
DIR By: ap823
Date: June 13, 2025, 6:10 am
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Thank you for your offer to draft something
[member=24]Hippocrates[/member], that would be very much
appreciated, and thanks to [member=43]MrChips[/member] for your
input.
[member=24]Hippocrates[/member], 14 days from the notice is
coming up (on Tuesday), shall i send you a draft i've put
together for your review?
#Post#: 76899--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Code 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
when prohibited, Cray Ave/Station Ap. St Mary Cray
DIR By: ap823
Date: June 17, 2025, 12:10 pm
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appeal submitted (1000 character limit on the council website):
1.
area physically segregated by traffic island, creating
unenforceable zone (Highway Code Rule 174). Rain obscured
painted lines, making island the sole visible boundary (evidence
attached).
2.
protected island zone to facilitate junction clearance. Video
confirms no traffic impediment or safety compromise occurred.
3.
consistent with R (Davies) v Birmingham CC principle.
4.
departing vehicle created sufficient clearance before my exit
point. Stopping was unnecessary.
5.
your evidence shows entry at 11:49:44. 16-second discrepancy
materially invalidates the alleged offense timing.
PCN void due to unlawful demarcation, de minimis impact,
demonstrable exit clearance, evidence inconsistency
#Post#: 76917--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Code 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
when prohibited, Cray Ave/Station Ap. St Mary Cray
DIR By: MrChips
Date: June 17, 2025, 3:54 pm
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Sounds almost like AI wrote it! Did you already submit it?
#Post#: 76950--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Code 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
when prohibited, Cray Ave/Station Ap. St Mary Cray
DIR By: ap823
Date: June 18, 2025, 2:23 am
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--- Quote from: MrChips link ---
>
> Sounds almost like AI wrote it! Did you already submit it?
>
--- End Quote ---
yes submitted yesterday prior to the 14 day period expiry.
many thanks again for your input, [member=43]MrChips[/member].
if I understand correctly, the councils are always rejecting the
first representation and the same arguments will need to be
presented to the adjudicator? If so, should I change anything in
my text?
#Post#: 77000--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Code 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction
when prohibited, Cray Ave/Station Ap. St Mary Cray
DIR By: MrChips
Date: June 18, 2025, 7:54 am
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Yes, they will almost certainly reject your representations.
Do not resubmit that text if you subsequently take it to the
tribunal - get someone on here to help you redraft as (I'm
afraid to say) what you submitted is a bit of a word salad. It
has some elements which can be used but it needs to be presented
more coherently and persuasively and with more focus on the
potentially winning arguments.
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