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#Post#: 76064--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, Code 31 entering a box junction, Eltham High St
SE9, Eltham Fire Station
DIR By: dad-taxi
Date: June 11, 2025, 12:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Why not back to basics:
>
> IMO, as far as is relevant:
>
> The regulations provide the following:
>
> Box junctions
> 11.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow
criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in
Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a
vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to
stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary
vehicles.
>
> In this case the yellow markings are placed 'on the length of
road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a
fire, police or ambulance station
>
> Therefore paragraph 11(7) of Part 6 of Schedule 9 applies:
>
> (7) A reference in this paragraph (however expressed) to a
vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction
includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is
within the box junction.
>
> A 'box junction' is a defined term, as above, it is not the
extent of yellow markings on the carriageway unless these have
been placed where permitted.
>
> In my case, the 'vehicle entrance' extends between the 2
points of the crossover where the carriageway is tangential to
the corners. It therefore follows that the extent of the 'box
junction' is that area whose shorter sides are at right-angles
to these points and whose length is that distance between. This
can be seen clearly at the lower corner.
>
> However, equally clearly the yellow markings extend beyond
this point at the upper corner and as clearly my car was not
'stopped within the permitted box junction although I accept
that it was stopped on the yellow lines.
>
> The council has no power to place yellow markings willy-nilly
but must comply with the regulations. Similarly, a penalty is
not owing because no part of my car was within the area
restricted by those regulations.
>
> The PCN must be cancelled.
>
>
> OP, IMO I think your tail-gating is a no-hoper for 2 reasons:
> 1. It's not the motorcycle which caused you to stop, it was
the lack of exit space for the right-turn only lane;
> 2. It's not a defence anyway whatever we might think. Frankly,
if moving into a bus lane and crossing a traffic light white
lines to move for emergency services vehicles are not defences
to those respective contraventions, and they're not, then yours
certainly isn't.
>
--- End Quote ---
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Mr Anderson. I get the point about why tail-gating
isnt the best argument. In my stress/haste I already challenged
with the following text which is made up of 2 parts (tail gating
and the size of yellow box). Lets see what happens
---------------------------------------------------------
I am writing with regards to the PCN GR23646182
I was approaching this Yellow Box Junction at an appropriate
speed, maintaining a good distance from the vehicles ahead. From
my driving position, I could see sufficient space to cross and
clear the box. Unfortunately, the two cars immediately in front
of me then stopped, leaving an unusually large gap which meant I
would not clear the box. I began to brake to stop before the box
markings. However, due to a motorcycle tailgating me (as
visible in the video evidence), I had to reduce my braking force
significantly to avoid an accident. This was the main reason my
vehicle encroached into the marked area
Furthermore, my research indicates that while a yellow box may
be marked outside a fire station, this particular box is far too
long and not placed in a prescribed place and as such should not
be there and no contravention can occur. I request that this PCN
be cancelled at this earliest.'
#Post#: 76081--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, Code 31 entering a box junction, Eltham High St
SE9, Eltham Fire Station
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: June 11, 2025, 3:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
So you've submitted formal reps. In which case all that's left
is to wait.
#Post#: 76154--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, Code 31 entering a box junction, Eltham High St
SE9, Eltham Fire Station
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: June 12, 2025, 4:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Sorry HCA you are wrong taking an action to avoid/prevent an
accident is a defense. You do not move out of the way of an
ambulance or other emergency vehicle to avoid an accident but
out of courtesy. which I can attest to the fact that done safely
the police and others appreciate
#Post#: 77963--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, Code 31 entering a box junction, Eltham High St
SE9, Eltham Fire Station
DIR By: dad-taxi
Date: June 24, 2025, 12:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
My representation has been rejected. :'(
I wrote this to them
"I am writing with regards to the PCN GR23646182
I was approaching this Yellow Box Junction at an appropriate
speed, maintaining a good distance from the vehicles ahead. From
my driving position, I could see sufficient space to cross and
clear the box. Unfortunately, the two cars immediately in front
of me then stopped, leaving an unusually large gap which meant I
would not clear the box. I began to brake to stop before the box
markings. However, due to a motorcycle tailgating me (as
visible in the video evidence), I had to reduce my braking force
significantly to avoid an accident. This was the main reason my
vehicle encroached into the marked area
Furthermore, my research indicates that while a yellow box may
be marked outside a fire station, this particular box is far too
long and not placed in a prescribed place and as such should not
be there and no contravention can occur. I request that this PCN
be cancelled at this earliest.'"
---------------------------------------------------------
It seems they have responded to only part of my message and
chosen to ignore the actual reasons I am citing. Their response:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/cLW3UwG.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/5UeSNDT.jpeg
---------------------------------------------------------
Are the kind experts able to advise me of my next steps ?
#Post#: 77998--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, Code 31 entering a box junction, Eltham High St
SE9, Eltham Fire Station
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: June 24, 2025, 1:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You need to calm down a bit next is you pay or appeal to the
tribunal. I would appeal and can help if you stop going off half
cocked
#Post#: 78306--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, Code 31 entering a box junction, Eltham High St
SE9, Eltham Fire Station
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: June 26, 2025, 9:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
OK On Monday the 8th of July register your appeal with London
tribunals in the box for evidence write only I rely on my formal
representations and further details to be added
Ask for a personal appeal via teams and once you have a date and
case number let us know and I will draft your appeal If i feel
able i may represent you but do not want at this stage to make a
promise i cannot keep due to health issues
#Post#: 78333--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, Code 31 entering a box junction, Eltham High St
SE9, Eltham Fire Station
DIR By: dad-taxi
Date: June 26, 2025, 11:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Pastmybest link ---
>
> OK On Monday the 8th of July register your appeal with London
tribunals in the box for evidence write only I rely on my formal
representations and further details to be added
>
> Ask for a personal appeal via teams and once you have a date
and case number let us know and I will draft your appeal If i
feel able i may represent you but do not want at this stage to
make a promise i cannot keep due to health issues
>
--- End Quote ---
Much appreciated. I will proceed per your suggestion.
#Post#: 78382--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, Code 31 entering a box junction, Eltham High St
SE9, Eltham Fire Station
DIR By: Chaseman
Date: June 26, 2025, 2:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
This case may be of some use to you.
Look up London Tribunals register of appeals for case
2130491073
The key bit of my successful appeal was the adjudicator's words:
--- Quote ---
> Second, and more importantly the vehicle is still moving out
of the box junction when the CCTV footage stops. The Adjudicator
must see the entire driving of the vehicle in and out of the box
junction. I find this to be a serious omission.
--- End Quote ---
Now admittedly my "offence" was "stopping, if it be that,
[which] is hardly perceptible."
OP stops for a reasonable period. But nonetheless the CCTV does
not show him moving out of the YBJ and adjudicator Teper says
this is "a serious omission".
#Post#: 80234--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, Code 31 entering a box junction, Eltham High St
SE9, Eltham Fire Station
DIR By: dad-taxi
Date: July 9, 2025, 6:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Pastmybest link ---
>
> OK On Monday the 8th of July register your appeal with London
tribunals in the box for evidence write only I rely on my formal
representations and further details to be added
>
> Ask for a personal appeal via teams and once you have a date
and case number let us know and I will draft your appeal If i
feel able i may represent you but do not want at this stage to
make a promise i cannot keep due to health issues
>
--- End Quote ---
[member=156]Pastmybest[/member] I am looking to appeal this as
per your suggestion. Sent you a private message for some
personal details it needs
#Post#: 80235--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich, Code 31 entering a box junction, Eltham High St
SE9, Eltham Fire Station
DIR By: dad-taxi
Date: July 9, 2025, 6:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Chaseman link ---
>
> This case may be of some use to you.
>
> Look up London Tribunals register of appeals for case
2130491073
>
> The key bit of my successful appeal was the adjudicator's
words:
>
> [quote]Second, and more importantly the vehicle is still
moving out of the box junction when the CCTV footage stops. The
Adjudicator must see the entire driving of the vehicle in and
out of the box junction. I find this to be a serious omission.
--- End Quote ---
Now admittedly my "offence" was "stopping, if it be that,
[which] is hardly perceptible."
OP stops for a reasonable period. But nonetheless the CCTV does
not show him moving out of the YBJ and adjudicator Teper says
this is "a serious omission".
[/quote]
thank you [member=65]Chaseman[/member]. I will hopefully get an
adjucator who looks at this aspect
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