DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 74944--------------------------------------------------
Contravention code 12 – parking in Res permit holders zone, but
sign painted out – Hillingdon WD4 Ferrers Ave
DIR By: Wilbo
Date: June 5, 2025, 9:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi all,
Posting on behalf of a friend. Vehicle was parked in restricted
zone (residents permits only). However, all signs were painted
out leaving only the blue 'P' for 'parking' so the driver
thought it was fine to park. There was a sign at the entrance of
the road but this was obscured behind a tree (see attached
screenshot from Google Streetview).
In my view the PCN isn't enforceable since the signage wasn't
correct. Streetview shows that the signs have been painted out
since at least July 2024 so the council have had plenty of time
to repair/replace them.
Also it seems that the warden didn't observe the vehicle for
more than 6 mins. Is that relevant?
Would love to know what you chaps think – any feedback will be
gratefully received!!
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 74953--------------------------------------------------
Re: Contravention code 12 – parking in Res permit holders zone,
but sign painted out – Hillingdon WD4 Ferrers Ave
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: June 5, 2025, 10:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
A rather selective GSV snapshot!
Op no. 10 is just inside the zone. Personally, I think it's
what's not there which adds most weight to the argument i.e. you
cannot have a start to a zone without an end. See p.162.
The council have tried to dispense with the 'Parking permit area
ENDS' sign by having this co-terminous with the beginning of the
Ticket and Meter Zone....but they can't because, apart from
anything else, the respective hours of operation are different.
As the driver was so close to the entrance to the zone then when
they looked around them for indicators as to what restrictions
might apply they didn't see any i.e. the repeater sign doesn't
carry any info and the Permit ENDS sign which would have been
clearly visible wasn't, because it there isn't one.
But I think this would have to be argued at the tribunal because
councils don't like to acknowledge shoddy signing.
#Post#: 75023--------------------------------------------------
Re: Contravention code 12 – parking in Res permit holders zone,
but sign painted out – Hillingdon WD4 Ferrers Ave
DIR By: Wilbo
Date: June 5, 2025, 3:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Great observation! Thanks for that… I’ll work it into an appeal
and post if up shortly…
#Post#: 75117--------------------------------------------------
Re: Contravention code 12 – parking in Res permit holders zone,
but sign painted out – Hillingdon WD4 Ferrers Ave
DIR By: Wilbo
Date: June 6, 2025, 7:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Op no. 10 is just inside the zone. Personally, I think it's
what's not there which adds most weight to the argument i.e. you
cannot have a start to a zone without an end. See p.162.
>
--- End Quote ---
Ah sadly I don't think this line of argument will quite work
since the Traffic Signs Manual stipulates that
"A sign to diagram 664.1 indicating the end of the permit holder
parking area will be needed, unless it is a
cul‑de‑sac." (my emphasis).
it adds that
"repeater signs are not mandatory and might not be required at
all in a short cul‑de‑sac or where parking by
non‑permit holders is not likely to be a problem."
Unfortunately, Ferrers Ave is indeed a cul-de-sac. Nonetheless I
will mention this as I guess there was no other sign to see from
the driver's POV upon parking, except from the tampered-with
signage which suggest that parking IS permitted...
However, there is further bad news: the manual states that
"Where parking in an entire road is reserved solely for permit
holders, it might be possible to provide signs at the entrance
to the road and dispense with signs and bay markings within the
road itself"
and adds that
"In order to reduce environmental impact, there is no
requirement to provide an entry sign on each side of the road."
So I think that the best approach is to argue that the signage
was confusing and that the driver reasonably believed that they
were permitted to park in the street. What do you think?
#Post#: 75132--------------------------------------------------
Re: Contravention code 12 – parking in Res permit holders zone,
but sign painted out – Hillingdon WD4 Ferrers Ave
DIR By: Wilbo
Date: June 6, 2025, 8:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Here's my appeal - any feedback would be very welcome!
I wish to appeal the above PCN, on the grounds that the driver
was unaware of restrictions in place when they parked, due to
insufficient signage.
Firstly, there were ‘repeater signs’ along the length of the
street but all of these had been painted out so they were
entirely blank apart from the blue ‘P’ sign, which is
universally recognised as a symbol for parking. Thus, when the
driver exited the vehicle and looked around for parking
information, they saw one of these signs nearby and reasonably
assumed that parking was permitted with no restrictions. There
were no times or other restrictions visible on the signs. The
vehicle was parked close to the entrance to the permit parking
area but there was no sign signalling the end of the area (since
this is a cul-de-sac) and so there was no other signage visible
to the driver when they exited the vehicle and looked around.
Secondly, the sign signalling entrance to the permit parking
area was obscured by a tree (planted since March 2022) and the
second entrance sign, which would have been more clearly seen,
has been removed for some time. The attached Google Street View
screenshots clearly show that the sign is not visible to drivers
as they enter the road or indeed once they have driven some way
into it. The sign is only visible once a vehicle is level with
the tree itself and the likelihood of the driver actually seeing
it might be greatly lessened by road conditions at the time –
for instance passing a high-sided vehicle, or when observing
potential hazards such as children playing in the cul-de-sac.
As can be seen from the attached Street View screenshots, in
March 2022 there were two entrance signs, one on each side of
the road; there was no tree obscuring view of the right-hand
sign; the repeater signs along the length of the street had not
been altered. By July 2024, however, the left-hand entrance sign
had been removed; a tree had been planted (presumably by the
council) very close to the remaining entrance sign; and the
repeater signs had all been painted over leaving no information
apart from the blue ‘P’ logo which indicates permitted parking.
In the ten months since then there has been ample time for the
council to repair or replace the repeater signs and to trim or
remove the newly-planted tree which obscures the only remaining
entrance sign. They have not done so. Taken together, the issues
with the visibility of the signage in Farrars Avenue are such
that the driver was unaware of the restrictions in place.
Therefore, I respectfully request that on this occasion the PCN
please be cancelled.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 75155--------------------------------------------------
Re: Contravention code 12 – parking in Res permit holders zone,
but sign painted out – Hillingdon WD4 Ferrers Ave
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: June 6, 2025, 10:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Not for me.
You're scoping well beyond what's required IMO.
Driver entered, parked and looked around for any markings which
would indicate whether parking was restricted; saw a Ticket and
Meter Zone sign, but this was indicating the start of that
restriction and wasn't relevant; saw a sign on opposite side of
the road, but apart from this not applying where the driver was
parked, it was blank other than for a faint 'P'.
When I returned and found the PCN I looked further afield even
backtracking to the start of the road. At this point I noticed
what I now know to be a Permit Parking Area sign situated on the
opposite footway but which was obscured by a tree from the
driver's seat when entering the road. Subsequent research has
shown that this restriction has been in place for some years and
whereas as recently as 2022 it was marked by 2 prominent signs
either side of the carriageway and no tree, the council have let
this deteriorate to one sign on the offside footway obscured (at
least at this time of the year) by a leafy crown.
With respect, the PCN should be cancelled and the signage
improved, at least to the standards deemed necessary in 2022.
Some thoughts.
#Post#: 75189--------------------------------------------------
Re: Contravention code 12 – parking in Res permit holders zone,
but sign painted out – Hillingdon WD4 Ferrers Ave
DIR By: Wilbo
Date: June 6, 2025, 1:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Some thoughts.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you so much H C!
I've incorporated your suggestions as follows:
I wish to appeal the above PCN, on the grounds that the driver
was unaware of any restrictions in place when they parked, due
to insufficient signage.
When the driver exited the vehicle they looked around for any
markings which would indicate whether parking was restricted.
There was a clearly-visible sign marking the entrance to the
'Ticket and Meter Zone’ at the entrance to Farrars Avenue, and
into Station Road and beyond: this very obviously did not apply
to the portion of Farrars Avenue in which the vehicle was
parked. Nearer to where the vehicle was parked the driver
noticed a smaller sign which was entirely blank apart from a
single blue ‘P’ sign (a universally-recognised symbol for
parking). Above this, on the same post, was a further sign
forbidding heavy vehicles from parking in the area outside of
the hours 8am–6.30pm. Apart from this, which clearly did not
apply to the vehicle in question, there was no indication of
parking restrictions in force in the street.
On returning to the vehicle and finding the PCN, the driver
explored the area and discovered a sign indicating the start of
a Permit Parking Area. The driver had not seen this before as it
is obscured by a tree from the driver’s vantage point when
entering the road, as the attached Google Street View
screenshots demonstrate. The driver also examined the signs near
the car and found that text informing drivers of restrictions in
place had been painted over with opaque white paint, leaving
only the ‘P’ symbol visible.
Subsequent research has shown that restrictions have been in
place in Farrers Avenue for some years and whereas these were
previously signalled by two prominent signs on either side of
the carriageway (as recently as 2022), the council has let this
deteriorate to only one sign on the offside footway which is now
obscured (at least at this time of the year) by a leafy crown.
Furthermore, the 'repeater signs’ along the street have all been
painted over since at least March 2022, leaving ample time for
repair or replacement.
With respect, the PCN should be cancelled and the signage
improved, at least to the standards deemed necessary in 2022.
---
(Note that the car was parked very near to the repeater sign
which had been painted out, not on the other side of the road to
it – see attached image which I forgot to include before)
[attachment deleted by admin]
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 1