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#Post#: 74931--------------------------------------------------
UK Car Park Management- Fined while waiting to pick up a
passenger
DIR By: Bob_A
Date: June 5, 2025, 8:26 am
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My wife took my car to pick up someone up from Hope Close,
London, SE12 which is a cul-del-sac.
The road has a number of marked parking bays. My wife used a
bay and waited in the car while the passenger (who lives in
Hope Close) came to the car.
On the attached map in red, A is the house and B is where the
car waited
Now I’ve received a fine.
In the attached letter you can see my wife in the driver seat on
entry and someone in the passenger seat on exit.
There is no photo of her in a parking bay, the 2 photos makes it
look like she may have waited in the middle of the road, do they
need to provide a photo of her in a parking bay?
I accept that the 10 minutes pick up could’ve been shorter but
the passenger had to make the house safe and lock up before
leaving. But that wasn't 10 minutes in the bay, some of that as
you can see was in the middle of the road
Thanks in advance for any help given
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 74973--------------------------------------------------
Re: UK Car Park Management- Fined while waiting to pick up a
passenger
DIR By: b789
Date: June 5, 2025, 11:38 am
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We really don't need to know who was driving the vehicle and you
certainly don't want to be blabbing that fact to the unregulated
private parking company. So, whoever is the Keeper, irrespective
of who was driving, needs to respond to this Parking Charge
Notice (PCN) that has been issued as a postal Notice to Keeper
(NtK).
The NtK is not 100% fully compliant with PoFA 2012, and so the
known Keeper cannot be liable. Only the unknown (to UKCPM)
driver can be liable. The only way they could know the identify
of the driver is if the Keeper blabs it to them, inadvertently
or otherwise.
UKCPM have no idea who the person they may be able to "see in
the drivers seat". So what? They have used ANPR to get the
vehicle registration and they are not allowed to do anything
else with those images.
Also, you owe me £100 for every occurrence of the word "fine"
you ca show me on that NtK. No one has been "fined". UKCPM re
not an authority of any sort. They are an unregulated, private
firm with zero statutory powers and calling their speculative
invoice a "fine" only alerts them that they have someone ripe
for the picking.
If you believe that tis PCN has been issued unfairly and you are
prepared to fight it, then we will advise and as long as you
follow the advice, you won't be paying a penny to UKCPM.
However, it will be a protracted process that will take
anything from one months to over a year before it is concluded.
No initial appeal will succeed but we go through the motions in
order to leave a paper trail. Once the appeals have been
rejected, you will start receiving useless debt recovery
letters. You can safely ignore anything from a debt collector as
they are powerless to do anything except to try and persuade the
low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree to pay up out of
ignorance and fear.
Eventually, you will receive a Letter of Claim (LoC) from a bulk
litigator of choice. We will advise on a suitable response. This
will lead to them issuing a claim and we will again advise on
how to deal with it and a suitable defence.
The odds of this ever getting as far as a hearing in court are
incredibly small. The outcome will end up with the claim being
struck out or discontinued.
So, are you up for the fight?
For now, you should submit an appeal. There is no legal
obligation on the known keeper (the recipient of the Notice to
Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the identity of the unknown driver and
no inference or assumptions can be made.
The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which
means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot
transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the
known keeper.
Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove
anything from it:
--- Quote ---
> I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking
charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I
will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your
client landowner.
>
> As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL
the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper
of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even
substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no
admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions
can be drawn. UKCPM has relied on contract law allegations of
breach against the driver only.
>
> The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have
been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation
of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable.
UKCPM have no hope at IAS or court, so you are urged to save us
both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 74987--------------------------------------------------
Re: UK Car Park Management- Fined while waiting to pick up a
passenger
DIR By: Bob_A
Date: June 5, 2025, 12:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi b789
It says on the letter than breaching the T&C’s displayed on the
noticeboard makes the owner liable.
But you say they can’t do that, so in answer to your question…..
Am I up for the fight?
Yes I am, and I've prepared myself for a long one.
I shall cut and paste what you have said, send it in as an
appeal and come back here with their reply.
Cheers
Bob
PS
I promise to not use the word 'fine' again :)
#Post#: 74992--------------------------------------------------
Re: UK Car Park Management- Fined while waiting to pick up a
passenger
DIR By: b789
Date: June 5, 2025, 12:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Bob_A link ---
>
> It says on the letter than breaching the T&C’s displayed on
the noticeboard makes the owner liable.
> But you say they can’t do that, so in answer to your
question…..
>
--- End Quote ---
Please show us where it mentions "OWNER". There is no register
of owners, is there? As far as civil parking and contract law
are concerned, there are only two legal entities... the Keeper
(or Hirer) and the Driver.
Whilst the Driver will always be the liable party for an alleged
breach of contract, that liability can only be transferred to
the Keeper if the creditor has fully complied with all the
requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted<br
/>(PoFA).
It is possible for an individual to be both entities. However,
there is no legal obligation on the Keeper to identify the
Driver to an unregulated private parking company and they should
never do so.
Hence, the operator does not know the Drivers identity unless
the Keeper blabs it to them inadvertently or otherwise by not
referring to the driver in the third party. So, no "I did this
or that", only "the driver did this or that".
#Post#: 75013--------------------------------------------------
Re: UK Car Park Management- Fined while waiting to pick up a
passenger
DIR By: Bob_A
Date: June 5, 2025, 1:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You right it doesn't say owner. That's me reading into things
that are not there and is why I need guidance.
It does say that I should tell them who was driving if I wasn't,
but as you pointed out in your first post I don't have.
I'm learning as I go along, I've already learned it's not a f1ne
and not to blab inadvertently about the driver.
#Post#: 75070--------------------------------------------------
Re: UK Car Park Management- Fined while waiting to pick up a
passenger
DIR By: b789
Date: June 6, 2025, 5:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It's an invoice from a private firm. It says you owe them a
debt. Do you think you owe them a debt? If you do, then pay
them.
If you don't, then you don't unless a judge says you do.
#Post#: 77699--------------------------------------------------
Re: UK Car Park Management- Fined while waiting to pick up a
passenger
DIR By: Bob_A
Date: June 23, 2025, 7:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi. I've received an email from UK Car Park Management.
I'd be very grateful on what to do now
PCN REFERENCE NUMBER: xxx
DATE OF PARKING EVENT : 28th May 2025
PAYMENT DUE DATE: 7th July 2025
TOTAL AMOUNT DUE: £60.00
Dear Mr xxx
Thank you for your appeal against the above Parking Charge
Notice.
At UK CPM we consider all appeals on a case-by-case basis. We
take each appeal very seriously and thoroughly investigate any
evidence that has been provided. We appreciate your
circumstances and understand this is not a situation anyone
would like to find themselves in; however, these parking
conditions have been put in place to ensure fair usage for all
motorists and support the needs of our client. After careful
consideration, it is unfortunate that I am writing to you today
to advise that on this occasion, your appeal has been
unsuccessful.
The decision to uphold your parking charge notice has been made
on the following basis.
Whilst we note the comments and reason for appeal, we can
confirm that the vehicle remained on site for 10 minutes with no
permit to authorise your stay. We must advise that this car park
is run by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras
which take a time and date stamped image of the vehicle on entry
and exit, measuring the length of time the vehicle remained on
site, this information is then cross-referenced with the data
from the permit systems. Due to no permit being found, we can
confirm that this PCN has been issued correctly.
Either due to the reason for issue and/or the insufficient
evidence provided to support the details of your appeal, we have
considered this PCN and found that it does not fall under the
category of Annex F the Appeals Charter of the Single Code of
Practice. Therefore, if no further evidence is provided, we will
deem this to be our final decision.
You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure
and therefore you now have two options; either pay or appeal to
the Independent Appeals Service (IAS) - you cannot do both.
To make payment of the total amount due as shown above, please
use one of the following payment options;
Online: www.paymyticket.co.uk
Telephone: 0345 463 4040 (24hr)
Post: Payments & Collections, PO Box 3114, Lancing, BN15 5BR
Alternatively, if you do not agree with your internal appeal
outcome and you wish to dispute the matter further, as you have
complied with our internal appeals procedure you may use, and we
will engage with, the IAS Standard Appeals Service providing you
lodge an appeal to them within 28 days of this rejection.
The Independent Appeals Service (www.theIAS.org) provides an
Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type.
If you decide to appeal to the IAS, you will need to visit their
website and use your PCN reference and corresponding vehicle
registration. All PCN's will be uploaded to the IAS website by
the end of this working day.
If you appeal this charge further then you will lose the ability
to pay at the reduced rate (if applicable). In the event that
your IAS appeal is unsuccessful, the full amount for the PCN
will then be payable. If you lodge an appeal with the IAS and
then subsequently pay the charge prior to that appeal being
determined, then the appeal will be withdrawn, and you will not
be given a further opportunity to contest the charge.
If you do not wish to dispute the matter further and payment is
not received within 28 days of the date of this correspondence
then additional charges may be incurred, for which you may be
liable. If the charge continues to remain outstanding, the
matter may be later referred for litigation in the County Court
which could result in a County Court Judgment being made against
you; this may impact on your ability to obtain credit in the
future.
#Post#: 77709--------------------------------------------------
Re: UK Car Park Management- Fined while waiting to pick up a
passenger
DIR By: b789
Date: June 23, 2025, 7:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Appeal to the IAS with the following:
--- Quote ---
> I am the registered keeper of the vehicle. I deny any
liability for this parking charge and appeal in full.
>
> The parking operator bears the burden of proof. It must
establish that a contravention occurred, that a valid contract
was formed between the operator and the driver, and that it has
lawful authority to operate and issue Parking Charge Notices
(PCNs) in its own name. I therefore require the operator to
provide the following:
>
> [indent]1. Strict proof of clear, prominent, and adequate
signage that was in place on the date in question, at the exact
location of the alleged contravention. This must include a
detailed site plan showing the placement of each sign and
legible images of the signs in situ. The operator must
demonstrate that signage was visible, legible, and compliant
with the IPC Code of Practice that was valid at the time of the
alleged contravention, including requirements relating to font
size, positioning, and the communication of key terms.
>
> 2. Strict proof of a valid, contemporaneous contract or lease
flowing from the landowner that authorises the operator to
manage parking, issue PCNs, and pursue legal action in its own
name. I refer the operator and the IAS assessor to Section 14 of
the PPSCoP (Relationship with Landowner), which clearly sets out
mandatory minimum requirements that must be evidenced before any
parking charge may be issued on controlled land.
>
> In particular, Section 14.1(a)–(j) requires the operator to
have in place written confirmation from the landowner which
includes:
>
> [indent]• the identity of the landowner,
> • a boundary map of the land to be managed,
> • applicable byelaws,
> • the duration and scope of authority granted,
> • detailed parking terms and conditions including any specific
permissions or exemptions,
> • the means of issuing PCNs,
> • responsibility for obtaining planning and advertising
consents,
> • and the operator’s obligations and appeal procedure under
the Code.[/indent]
>
> These requirements are not optional. They are a condition
precedent to issuing a PCN and bringing any associated action.
Accordingly, I put the operator to strict proof of compliance
with the entirety of Section 14 of the PPSCoP. Any document that
contains redactions must not obscure the above conditions. The
document must also be dated and signed by identifiable persons,
with evidence of their authority to act on behalf of the parties
to the agreement. The operator must provide an agreement showing
clear authorisation from the landowner for this specific site.
>
> 3. Strict proof that the enforcement mechanism (e.g. ANPR or
manual patrol) is reliable, synchronised, maintained, and
calibrated regularly. The operator must prove the vehicle was
present for the full duration alleged and not simply momentarily
on site, potentially within a permitted consideration or grace
period as defined by the PPSCoP.
>
> 4. Strict proof that the Notice to Keeper complies with the
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), if the operator is
attempting to rely on keeper liability. Any failure to comply
with the mandatory wording or timelines in Schedule 4 of PoFA
renders keeper liability unenforceable.
>
> 5. The IAS claims that its assessors are “qualified solicitors
or barristers.” Yet there is no way to verify this. Decisions
are unsigned, anonymised, and unpublished. There is no
transparency, no register of assessors, and no way for a
motorist to assess the legal credibility of the individual
supposedly adjudicating their appeal. If the person reading this
really is legally qualified, they will know that without strict
proof of landowner authority (VCS v HMRC [2013] EWCA Civ 186),
no claim can succeed. They will also know that clear and
prominent signage is a prerequisite for contract formation
(ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67), and that keeper liability
under PoFA is only available where strict statutory conditions
are met.
>
> If the assessor chooses to overlook these legal requirements
and accept vague assertions or redacted documents from the
operator, that will speak for itself—and lend further weight to
the growing concern that this appeals service is neither
independent nor genuinely legally qualified.
>
> In short, I dispute this charge in its entirety and require
full evidence of compliance with the law, industry codes of
practice, and basic contractual principles.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 77808--------------------------------------------------
Re: UK Car Park Management- Fined while waiting to pick up a
passenger
DIR By: Bob_A
Date: June 23, 2025, 4:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for this, much appreciated.
I will cut and paste your reply :)
#Post#: 77862--------------------------------------------------
Re: UK Car Park Management- Fined while waiting to pick up a
passenger
DIR By: Bob_A
Date: June 24, 2025, 5:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm in the process of cut and pasting the wording I have been
given
It asks if I want to upload any files, in my case I assume no as
I'm relying on the wording.
At the next step I have 4 tick boxes and I have to acknowledge
all 4 to be able to proceed.
Is it safe to tick all 4 boxes? I assume it is otherwise I can't
proceed.
Please read each of the following points carefully and tick the
box only where you agree to the statement.
I confirm that I agree to submit to Arbitration under the
Standard Appeals Procedure as defined in the IAS Arbitration
(ADR) General Rules and Procedures and The IAS Private Parking
Charge Appeals Rules and Procedure (also available on the IAS
website (portal.theias.org)). I have read and understood the
Rules and agree to them.
Where I have appointed, or if I later appoint, a representative
to deal with matters on my behalf, I accept liability for any
representations or misrepresentations made on my behalf.
The information contained in this appeal form, and any attached
evidence, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I
provide the information knowing that if it is tendered into
evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully
stated anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be
true and that by registering my details and submitting this
appeal I agree to my information being used in accordance with
your privacy policy.
I also confirm that I haven't included any evidence with the
appeal and do not wish to do so. I understand that once I have
submitted the appeal that I cannot go back and alter, add or
take away information or evidence.
IMPORTANT
If you're having trouble uploading evidence you wish to include,
please do not continue to submit the appeal. Please contact us
for assistance. If you do not upload the evidence at the time of
submitting the appeal, it must be considered WITHOUT the
evidence.
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