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#Post#: 73557--------------------------------------------------
WESTMINSTER PCN - 12R Code - Parking In a Residents Bay
DIR By: danswa101
Date: May 28, 2025, 5:41 am
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Hi,
I received a PCN from Westminster Council about a week ago, I
did a informal appeal which was rejected now I'm indecisive on
what to do.
I found the signage to be really confusing, in the space of 3
metres they had pay and display signs and resident parking. I
genuinely thought that I was parked within the pay and display
zone and was legally parked. I couldn't see anything that
clearly differentiated the space I was parked in to the pay and
display ones right behind.
I'm not from London, so unable to go back to the site. I've
looked at google maps to see the street view which I've attached
and can't see any thing that identifies the differences. The bay
lines are very faint on google maps.
I've attached the PCN response, photos the warden took and
google street view photos, and one to show where both the signs
are. I was parked where the red car was in the photo with the
van behind, or where the van was in front of the silver car in
the second photo. Do you think I have good grounds for a further
appeal or should just pay while it's still in the discount
period?
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/xlxldp2rxm0mk3hix80wq/AMARBE8vyadoUDZWG2vT9Kg?rlkey=l1l8i4eebyiwn78jfeyim65qf&st=ml4elus3&dl=0<br
/>- PCN, Photos, Council Response etc
Thanks for any advice
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 73605--------------------------------------------------
Re: WESTMINSTER PCN - 12R Code - Parking In a Residents Bay
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: May 28, 2025, 9:39 am
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Well it seems the sign was right by your car but what's odd is
the CEO hasn't take a pic of car and sign together. You can see
the bay divider in one pic.
So not sure you have much to go on except some adjudicators will
take a dim view of not knowing if the sign the CEO pictured is
in a bay where your car was.
HTML https://i.ibb.co/k6zP68T3/w6.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/MybXS0b8/w5.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/XxcFXHGg/w4.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/BV4rt4mM/w3.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/6c3HQbGk/w2.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/Q3kXncjm/w1.jpg
#Post#: 73633--------------------------------------------------
Re: WESTMINSTER PCN - 12R Code - Parking In a Residents Bay
DIR By: danswa101
Date: May 28, 2025, 11:36 am
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Thanks, do you think it'll be worth appealing on that basis? or
better to just pay?
I did try to use AI to guide me too and it gave the following
points and said to appeal:
The council has not proven that the bay was a residents-only
bay, as required for a 12r PCN.
The CEO’s photos do not show the full bay, start/end markings,
or demarcation lines separating bay types.
No photo shows the signpost in relation to the vehicle — so it’s
unclear whether the sign applied to your bay.
The council’s claim about bay demarcations is not backed up by
photographic evidence.
Google Street View images show the road markings in this area
were faint, worn out, or absent, supporting your claim of
confusion.
Multiple signs nearby (e.g. “Resident permit holders only” and
“Pay-by-phone”) could easily cause confusion for a non-resident.
but as we all know AI likes to give you an answer that you want
to hear so don't want to go with that alone ;D
#Post#: 73675--------------------------------------------------
Re: WESTMINSTER PCN - 12R Code - Parking In a Residents Bay
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 28, 2025, 3:28 pm
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This is a case often seen where the only delineator between bays
with different restrictions is the double-dashed line marked on
the carriageway perpendicular to the kerb. Good signing practice
for situations like this is to mount the two bay signs
side-by-side on a pole at the separation line for the bays, with
an arrow on each sign indicating applicability.
Here total reliance is placed on the bay markings; not good. On
the other hand the residents-only sign was right by the OP's
car, thus indicating the OP was maybe not as diligent in looking
at the signs. So there are two things that tend to balance each
other out, meaning this would not be a slam-dunk win at London
Tribunals (LT). As the full PCN penalty would be in play for an
LT appeal, the OP needs to consider whether it would be worth
taking the 'double-or-quits' gamble at LT.
Of course there may a 'technical' appeal based on Westminster
mismanagement of the enforcement process, so wait a bit to see
if one is suggested. There have been successful appeals recently
based on unlawful demands for money when completing the reps
pages on council websites.
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