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#Post#: 6760--------------------------------------------------
TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
DIR By: YBJnoMore
Date: October 5, 2023, 10:52 am
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Hi, All I have received a PCN for stopping in a YBJ. I concede I
stopped in a YBJ but I have some points I wish I challenge. I
have tried doing some research and if I can have some advice if
I have any grounds to appeal due to this would be greatly
appreciated :).
- The YBJ to me is not to code it does not go all the way to the
kerb due to it being a red route so a red line follows the curb
all the way round. I have requested a FOI with TFL asking for
clarification if they have been given a exception by the
Transport Secretary. From asking the manager and some googling I
do not think they do?. I will post the FOI in this thread when
it is given.
(FOI-2141-2324/GH 13 October deadline)
(Appeal granted due to the same reason
HTML http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/...hp/t53083.html)
HTML http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t53083.html)
- My PCN has 31 instead of 31J. I Know PCN have been quashed for
this but when i have read their code list it states under camera
enforcement that a J is not required for PCN so think this is no
longer relevant?
(
HTML https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/download/file/fid/28636
HTML http://)
- My vision of the YBJ is not good. There is not great vision of
the roads away from junction due to the wall and trees. Plus
other street furniture. And then the actual YBJ has been placed
on a hump so it his is higher than surrounding roads,
unfortunately for me I have never driven there before and was
doing a left turn and did not see the YBJ until it would have
been unsafe for me to brake suddenly.
- When I have spoken to TFL for requesting the CCTV the first
two times the employees were evasive and denied me being able to
hold the PCN until I have my evidence. It was not until a 3rd
call a week later after seeing posts on here saying it will be
paused whilst you wait. The 3rd call the employee was more
helpful but I was insistent of it being put on Hold. I also
spoken to the manager afterwards to complain about the previous
calls. I requested a copy of my calls from the manager. My point
for this is it seems like TFL are purposefully denying you
support, as they know the less time you have to consider your
options you are more likely to panic and pay the reduced fee.
I Receive my PCN on the 15th of Sep 2023 and Received the CCTV
on the 4th Oct 2023. I have been told it is still on hold but
they do not give me a date it will come of hold for the
discount. Other than I need to have my submitted my appeal
before the 28 days are up. I am sorry if this is not a lot of
time for you to help me but I didn't want to post without having
the CCTV and was hopeful the FOI would have been completed by
now but that is not looking hopeful.
So the CD I received only contains the CCTV of my PCN. But I was
supposed to receive a copy of the calls also. The man said the
case is on hold until I receive both, but I have to still appeal
within the 28 days if it does not. Is this true as I think if
they do no supply the correct items within the time then how is
the PCN still valid?
I am the Blue Fiesta
HTML https://youtu.be/3MpREGlLw-4
HTML https://youtu.be/3MpREGlLw-4
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4788591,-0....i8192?entry=ttu
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4788591,-0.1707512,3a,53y,19.2h,84.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTT6_1-Dv6Dj6AA2a7gWD8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
HTML https://imgur.com/a/cdNvcil
HTML https://imgur.com/a/cdNvcil
Thanks again this forum has been so useful to me! to help me
even want to attempt to appeal. I have think I have included
everything you require let me know if you need anything else.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/q3Qrnue.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/UITG8C6.jpg
#Post#: 6764--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
DIR By: MrChips
Date: October 5, 2023, 11:41 am
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If the video is coming soon, I'll hold off commenting until
that's made available.
#Post#: 6790--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
DIR By: YBJnoMore
Date: October 5, 2023, 3:59 pm
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Hi apologies for the delay I have added the YouTube link to my
post.
#Post#: 6816--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
DIR By: MrChips
Date: October 5, 2023, 6:23 pm
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I'm not sure any of the arguments you put forward have any merit
unfortunately, although happy to be proved wrong.
Couple of things I spotted from the video which might have more
weight.
The PCN states you committed the offence at 1726 whereas
actually it must have been no later than 1725 (the offence takes
place at the point of entry).
We can't say absolutely when you entered as that moment happens
off screen which is also a potential winner for you as usually
adjudicators require the moment of entry to be featured in the
evidence. In this instance you can probably infer the point of
entry which they may deem sufficient to condemn you.
#Post#: 6894--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
DIR By: YBJnoMore
Date: October 6, 2023, 1:34 pm
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Hi, so my point mainly being about the YBJ not being to code I
thought was a strong argument considering there has been
previous appeals allowed due to the YBJ not touching the kerb.
Have recent rulings not allowed appeals due to this?, why do you
think that does not have any merit?
I accept the others are more subjective and I don't know if the
code is incorrect as I read Code list. But same with that is
appeals have been given for that also.
Thanks for pointing out the time I didn't even notice that. I
thought like you mention and similar to having to have the
correct code that all information on a PCN has to be correct.
I am still waiting for the call logs so I will ring them over
this as the 28 days is coming up very soon. I hope someone like
you say may hopefully know anything else, or can clarify if the
box is to code so that I can maybe raise in my Appeal.
Once Again thanks to all for your time and this forum!
Edit: I have managed to look on
HTML https://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/
HTML https://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/
and I am certain that
there is not an exception so at least the FOI is not needed to
know this.
#Post#: 6905--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 6, 2023, 5:47 pm
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Here is the GSV satellite view of the YBJ.
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/qm67F5ALjXQcHTzT7
Although the box is strictly speaking extended beyond the
junction, it ends where the curve of the kerbstones ends, so I
am not convince at all that this is a strong appeal point. IMHO
you are on stronger ground with the argument put forward by Mr
Chips, namely the video does not show your point of entry into
the box However, it does show you following the car in front
very closely, so it looks as if you took a chance and it didn't
pay off. Sorry to be so negative, but I'm only trying to look
with an adjudicators mind at the video, as it is the sole
evidence. I think if you won at London Tribunals you'd be lucky,
but see what the others say.
This YBJ must be a nice little earner for TfL, because back
before your car in the video a black and grey Mini stopped in
the same place !
#Post#: 6909--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
DIR By: YBJnoMore
Date: October 6, 2023, 6:30 pm
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Yeah I will admit I didn't help myself haha, Just not even being
from London and how the traffic flowed then stopped so suddenly
with me not being to see it was YBJ until very late. I agree not
being captured is a strong argument and since I have seen
appeals allowed due to this. And Sorry If I was not clear, I do
not mean the box is longer than it should be. What I am saying
is that the Red Route line continues around the kerb. But under
the Traffic Sign Regulations. The YBJ has to meet the kerb, as
there has been multiple other Appeals allowed due to this in the
Battersea area due to the Red Route. I seen someone say the TFL
said they cant have the box to code because of the Red Route.
"Transport for London had argued that the reason that the YBJ at
that junction was non-compliant was because of the presence of a
red route at that junction which had double red lines drawn. In
its letter rejecting my appeal TfL had said, "TfL has deemed it
practical to not draw the yellow box marking above the double
red lines or vice versa, as this will further create
complication with the 2 road marks." That is from the Pepipoo
page I linked in post.
2 Cases of the similar also.. I am finding it hard see how a PCN
can be valid with a YBJ to my understanding not to code, with
appeals given before.? Maybe I am just being stupid and missing
something lol
HTML https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:908644,1007609,60,APPEAL&cs=37-qb5Dxw7dZEgkr-qogb8rp9fIAfVqygPI8zcf5_u-tL3KpPjOcJrA139UK567-wxa5c8b40zFkP1Ac5M7ZVeA
HTML https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:908644,1007609,60,APPEAL&cs=37-qb5Dxw7dZEgkr-qogb8rp9fIAfVqygPI8zcf5_u-tL3KpPjOcJrA139UK567-wxa5c8b40zFkP1Ac5M7ZVeA
HTML https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:915500,1005905,60,APPEAL&cs=3PAioExs77pe9kgcuCW-pC7GB0wNQsIvMdWnjH6jMS4FwHhfI8NBX0cyC_JZmqVIdwPZh19I8GmMK1kOajIbPJw
HTML https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:915500,1005905,60,APPEAL&cs=3PAioExs77pe9kgcuCW-pC7GB0wNQsIvMdWnjH6jMS4FwHhfI8NBX0cyC_JZmqVIdwPZh19I8GmMK1kOajIbPJw
[img width=793
height=1120]
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/images/uksi_20023113_en_150[/img]
#Post#: 6911--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 6, 2023, 7:10 pm
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Clearly you've done your homework on this, but I'm not onvinced
you've got anywhere near a winning argument, I would think
almost no YBJs in London are compliant in terms of perfection
and complete compliance with the TSRGD.
Anyway, it's your money so go for a punt with London Tribunals
if you like a double-or-quits gamble.
#Post#: 6953--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: October 7, 2023, 10:57 am
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Well the video doesn't show the point of entry, which is your
strongest point. Many adjudicators won't accept a contravention
is made out without the point of entry being caught on camera.
You need to get a representation in as you're nearing the end of
the 28 days, you must submit something by midnight on 12
October.
#Post#: 7006--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
DIR By: YBJnoMore
Date: October 8, 2023, 9:03 am
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Thanks for all the Advice! So for my representation.. What
should I include, I will put in stating about the point of entry
not being shown as I agree it is my strongest point.. should I
mention about anything else, will it weaken my case or can it
help TFL decide there's too many points for Adjudicator to lean
to TFL favour, so they decide not to contest the appeal? Also I
know that they have to give a reply to the points on the appeal
and if they do not and give a generic reply that can also help
cant it.
And yeah many boxes probably are not but as the tribunals are
not binding and it seems like rulings don't require them to
change they can just fine people to no risk to them.. and if
they loose the very low percentage to appeals its nothing to the
millions they make.
I have the call logs now also, I presume there's no need for
them?
Thanks
Ryan
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