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#Post#: 72732--------------------------------------------------
Bristol city council code 17J driving in clean air zone. camera
on A370 brunel way
DIR By: Nikon1149
Date: May 22, 2025, 6:29 am
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I live in Wales but travel to bristol regularly as I used to
live there and have friends there. I usually use Waze maps app
when travelling outside of my home town, as it avoids ULEZ and
CAZ type zones automatically. This particular day I must have
defaulted to google maps and not realised. The route google maps
choose takes you just inside the CAZ for all of about half a
mile and straight back out. My route is really nowhere near the
centre.
They sent me the PCN notice with a single day to spare before
the 28 days period of notice ran out, so i'm not sure I have any
recourse here, but £69 is not a small sum for my current
situation and if there's any way of avoiding this, i'll happily
take it.
HTML https://imgur.com/a/NKFIGMD
#Post#: 72735--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol city council code 17J driving in clean air zone.
camera on A370 brunel way
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 22, 2025, 6:35 am
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The only way to potentially avoid paying it is to register an
appeal at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, on the basis that asking
for payment of the CAZ toll, as well as the PCN penalty is
unlawful as there are no powers in the CAZ regulations that
allow this.
Needless to say, if you do this, then the full PCN penalty would
be in play, (£120)
#Post#: 72736--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol city council code 17J driving in clean air zone.
camera on A370 brunel way
DIR By: Nikon1149
Date: May 22, 2025, 6:47 am
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> The only way to potentially avoid paying it is to register an
appeal at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, on the basis that asking
for payment of the CAZ toll, as well as the PCN penalty is
unlawful as there are no powers in the CAZ regulations that
allow this.
>
> Needless to say, if you do this, then the full PCN penalty
would be in play, (£120)
>
--- End Quote ---
I noticed another thread from 2023 for the exact same violation
on the exact same road had [member=1]cp8759[/member] reply this,
I was wondering if this course of action is still possible. His
post was as follow;
EDIT: Oh, the number to call has changed from an 0870 number, I
guess this isn't possible anymore.
---
Make representations online via the council website, we don't
want to risk any issues with the post. Here's a draft:
Dear Bristol City Council,
I challenge liability on the basis that the penalty demanded
exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. The PCN
carries an 0870 premium rate telephone number, and I contend
that as in Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council
(DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) this amounts to a demand that
exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case.
It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully
Attach copies of these two cases:
Andrew Young v London Borough of Croydon (2190531198, 27 January
2020)
Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10
November 2022)
#Post#: 72806--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol city council code 17J driving in clean air zone.
camera on A370 brunel way
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 22, 2025, 11:26 am
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Here are the CAZ regulations.
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1783/regulation/7/made
Also the TPT Case 2018
Case Number : IA01249-1803
Decision Date : 13/06/2018
Adjudicator : Caroline Sheppard
Extract
"There is no power in Regulation 7 for the PCN to require the
road user charge to be paid in
addition to the penalty charge. Nor is there a power for the
charging authority to refuse to
allocate a payment made for a crossing to that crossing, and
hold it, possibly indefinitely, for
future use."
#Post#: 72817--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol city council code 17J driving in clean air zone.
camera on A370 brunel way
DIR By: Nikon1149
Date: May 22, 2025, 11:59 am
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Here are the CAZ regulations.
>
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1783/regulation/7/made
>
> Also the TPT Case 2018
>
> Case Number : IA01249-1803
> Decision Date : 13/06/2018
> Adjudicator : Caroline Sheppard
>
> Extract
> "There is no power in Regulation 7 for the PCN to require the
road user charge to be paid in
> addition to the penalty charge. Nor is there a power for the
charging authority to refuse to
> allocate a payment made for a crossing to that crossing, and
hold it, possibly indefinitely, for
> future use."
>
--- End Quote ---
So do I have this correct, the issue is that they have charged
me the penalty (£120, discounted to £60 for 14 days) and also
asked me to pay the initial £9 fee for entering the zone, and
asked for this sum together £69/£129 when they should only be
charing me the penalty at this point?
#Post#: 72832--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol city council code 17J driving in clean air zone.
camera on A370 brunel way
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 22, 2025, 12:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Nikon1149 link ---
>
> [quote author=Incandescent link=topic=6443.msg72806#msg72806
date=1747931184]
> Here are the CAZ regulations.
>
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1783/regulation/7/made
>
> Also the TPT Case 2018
>
> Case Number : IA01249-1803
> Decision Date : 13/06/2018
> Adjudicator : Caroline Sheppard
>
> Extract
> "There is no power in Regulation 7 for the PCN to require the
road user charge to be paid in
> addition to the penalty charge. Nor is there a power for the
charging authority to refuse to
> allocate a payment made for a crossing to that crossing, and
hold it, possibly indefinitely, for
> future use."
>
--- End Quote ---
So do I have this correct, the issue is that they have charged
me the penalty (£120, discounted to £60 for 14 days) and also
asked me to pay the initial £9 fee for entering the zone, and
asked for this sum together £69/£129 when they should only be
charing me the penalty at this point?
[/quote]
Correct, but despite this decision being by the CHief
Adjudicator at the time, (now retired), it is not binding on
other adjudicators, but IMHO is valid. The Birmingham CAZ PCNs
do not request the toll, only the penalty charge. Of course, in
order to test the matter, you would have to take them to the
Traffic Penalty Tribunal as Bristol are unlikely to give way. So
the full PCN penalty would be in play, no discount. It's a
double-or-quits gamble, basically.
#Post#: 73080--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol city council code 17J driving in clean air zone.
camera on A370 brunel way
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 24, 2025, 9:23 am
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--- Quote from: Nikon1149 link ---
>
> So do I have this correct, the issue is that they have charged
me the penalty (£120, discounted to £60 for 14 days) and also
asked me to pay the initial £9 fee for entering the zone, and
asked for this sum together £69/£129 when they should only be
charing me the penalty at this point?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, that's the gist of it. If for instance you get a PCN for
parking in a car park without paying, the council can only
pursue you for the penalty charge, they don't demand that you
pay the penalty and the original pay & display fee on top of the
penalty.
If you want to pursue this you could instruct me to represent
you at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, but first you will need to
make a representation to the council in order to get a notice of
rejection. If you post a draft representation on here I'm happy
to proofread it for you.
#Post#: 73165--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol city council code 17J driving in clean air zone.
camera on A370 brunel way
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: May 25, 2025, 5:26 am
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OP, look at the 3 pieces of legislation referenced at the top of
the notice.
This process is governed by the Transport Act which in turn
enabled the Secretary of State(the 'national authority') to make
regulations. Here is the key provision IMO:
It's important to understand the terms which although similar
are legislatively chalk and cheese:
Enforcement of charging schemes
173 Penalty charges.
(1)The appropriate national authority may by regulations make
provision for or in connection with the imposition and payment
of charges (“charging scheme penalty charges”) in respect of
acts, omissions, events or circumstances relating to or
connected with charging schemes under this Part.
(2)The regulations may include provision for or in connection
with setting the rates of [i]charging scheme penalty charges
(which may include provision for discounts or surcharges).
(3)Charging scheme penalty charges in respect of any motor
vehicle shall be paid—
(a)by the registered keeper of the motor vehicle, or
(b)in circumstances specified in regulations made by the
appropriate national authority, by such person as is so
specified.
(4)The Lord Chancellor may make regulations about the
notification, adjudication and enforcement of charging scheme
penalty charges.[/i]
The ONLY basis on which penalties may be imposed and recovered
is set out in the regs. The regs CANNOT and DO NOT exceed the
authority provided by the Act i.e. they make provision for the
imposition and recovery of charging scheme penalty charges and
NOT charging scheme road user charges.
The Bristol Order is created by the council which CANNOT and
DOES NOT seek to act ultra vires by purporting to grant powers
which are NOT PERMITTED by statute and regulations.
But they try.
IMO,
Are the council entitled to recover the road user charge? Yes,
it's a power available to them.
Are the council permitted to use the 'charging scheme penalty
charge' regulatory provisions to do so? Clearly not.
Does the penalty charge notice in this case make clear that the
council are demanding payment of the road user charge under the
'charging scheme penalty charge' regulations? Yes.
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