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#Post#: 71028--------------------------------------------------
Greenwich - parked on prescribed hours on restricted street -
physical PCN x2
DIR By: Coldhands
Date: May 12, 2025, 7:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This thread is for 2 PCNs received on separate dates. I've
parked in this location countless times over the last 10 months
or so (work-related visits). Admittedly after the first PCN I
should have taken the hint and stopped parking there! You can be
the judge of how wise my decision not to do so was. Typically
this location is not well-covered by parking wardens as there is
a lot of construction traffic during the day due to an adjacent
building site. Luckily I no longer have need to park in
Greenwich on a regular basis.
Parking location is metres apart between each occasion - around
this spot -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/qx922KfxXB3vvWmi6
- where
you see the C&M sweeper vehicle parked on street view.
PCN 14257601 - 5th February -
HTML https://imgur.com/a/Ys2BpGh
PCN 14259662 - 5th March -
HTML https://imgur.com/a/cAxLKMW
I submitted informal reps for both of these on 5th March -
stating that I did not believe a contravention had occurred as I
did not deem that there was sufficient signage and road marking
to constitute a valid parking restriction at the location. There
were no signs on the street to indicate a parking restriction.
The only signs that exist are further along the street and these
appear to be specifically for certain car club specific permit
parking bays (you will see these on google street view, if you
go along the road away from Tarves Way). Furthermore I noted
that the yellow line on the road is faded in places and is also
covered in dust likely originating from the adjacent building
site (although this is only the case for the first occasion,
which you will see in the photos).
I have lost the council's response to these reps (which was an
identical response for both PCNs, came towards the end of March)
but they said that a) signage on the road is not needed, given
there is signage at the start of the restricted street and b) it
does not matter how clear the single yellow line is, it is a
motorist's responsibility to notice it.
The NtOs for both came through on 21st April.
I believe the signage aspect should win this for me, I think my
reference to the clarity of single yellow lines was a bit
superfluous. - I saw a similar case on the same street at the
adjudicator, where the motorist made reference to govt guidance
stating that for restricted parking zones covering more than a
dozen streets (as the Greenwich town center CPZ is), internal
time plates/conventional signage should be used. Looks like this
is clause E5 of statutory guidance on civil parking enforcement
issued in March 2008 from what I can see online.
Can I rely on this to win these appeals?
Any advice appreciated. Thank you very much!
#Post#: 71046--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich - parked on prescribed hours on restricted street
- physical PCN x2
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: May 12, 2025, 8:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Norman Road I think is in a large controlled parking zone so the
questions here are:
Did you pass CPZ entry signs on your route?
Are the single yellow lines you parked on substantially
compliant?
The lines do look clear. The size of the zone could be an issue
HTML https://i.ibb.co/YT00sJM7/gr2.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/N2JKXYn1/gr1.jpg
#Post#: 71055--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich - parked on prescribed hours on restricted street
- physical PCN x2
DIR By: Coldhands
Date: May 12, 2025, 9:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I would have passed the attached signposts coming into Greenwich
on the A206, although to be honest I have never actually noticed
them while driving through.
The lines are not in good shape but I guess would be considered
sufficiently noticeable.
The related case I mentioned is also attached.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 71143--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich - parked on prescribed hours on restricted street
- physical PCN x2
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 12, 2025, 5:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> I believe the signage aspect should win this for me,
--- End Quote ---
Unfortunately, I think a win is very unlikely, although I'm
always prepared to be surprised ! You parked on a reasonably
clear single yellow line, didn't check what the restrictions
are, and when you received a PCN, carried on parking there.
As Stamfordman says, the location is in a CPZ, where the entry
signs at the zone boundaries give the restrictions on the single
yellow lines. The CPZ is Greenwich Town Centre (G) with
controlled hours Mon-Sat 9am to 5 pm
HTML https://www.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/site/custom_scripts/repo/pages/cpz/iframe.html
This map is out-of-date, because the entry signs on GSV show a
Sunday restriction too
Here is one of the entry signs on the A200 (Creeek Road) as per
GSV October 2024: -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/ngnE76ELHzH2eUpu5
The next turn to the right in the GSV view is Norman Road.
and here is the sign on the A206 at the other end of Norman
Road: -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/T1z5SzYwU5Prm1jf6
So what could win ?
Well, the zone is very large and could be challenged on its
sheer size, the guidance originally said CPZs should only cover
around 8-10 streets, but that was a long time ago. However, one
could still make the point. However, apart from guidance on
size, such a large zone should really have repeater signs, and I
see none on the GSV views.
#Post#: 72048--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich - parked on prescribed hours on restricted street
- physical PCN x2
DIR By: Coldhands
Date: May 18, 2025, 9:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if anyone would kindly let me know their thoughts on
the below formal representations I intend to submit tomorrow?
Thanks!
Re.
PCN GR14257601 – 5th February
and PCN GR14259662 - 5th March
Vehicle reg. XXXXX
To whom it may concern,
I do not deem that the alleged contravention occurred, thus this
PCN 14257601 issued on 5th Feb is not valid. Similarly, the
alleged contravention in relation to PCN 14259662 issued on 5th
Mar did not occur. The basis for these statements is the same
for both PCNs and I issue these formal representations in
relation to both PCNs.
There is no signage on Norman Road to indicate that parking at
the location in question is subject to any restrictions. For
this reason, I parked my car at this location, being a single
yellow line marked section of Norman Road. After receiving this
PCN, I investigated further by walking around the surrounding
area, and found the following:
1.
parking bays, indicating specific parking restrictions for those
locations.
2.
parking is subject to specific restrictions. This signage
accompanies single yellow lines as well as marked parking bays.
Thus one would deduce parking restrictions in force for yellow
lines and parking bays on those streets.
a.
marked parking bays to indicate parking for electric vehicles
only, in one instance, car club cars only, in another instance,
and separate signage accompanies a yellow line to indicate
parking for business permit parking only between specific hours
(09:00 to 10:00).
b.
accompanying the single yellow line indicates parking for
resident and business permit holders only between specific hours
(Mon-Sat 09:00 to 17:00 and Sun 09:00 to 18:00)
3.
yellow line on Norman Road, one would deduce there are no
parking restrictions in force for the single yellow line on
Norman Road.
Based on this, I judged that no contravention occurred and the
PCN was issued in error.
I received a further PCN,14259662, issued on 5th Mar, after
parking again a few metres along the street from the location
where I parked when the first PCN was issued.
For the same reasons as above, I judge that no contravention
occurred and this PCN was also issued in error. Upon further
research, I discovered on the website of Greenwich council that
Norman Road is considered to be part of the ‘Greenwich town
centre’ controlled parking zone. A big surprise to me, as I do
not recall passing any signage to indicate this, and there is no
mention of the presence of a CPZ in either the PCN, the evidence
accompanying the PCN online, or the notice to owner.
In addition, most would not consider Norman Road to be part of
Greenwich town centre. The area of Greenwich commonly referred
to as the town centre is typically located around the Greenwich
Market and the area surrounding the Royal Observatory and
Greenwich Park.
I went back to the location where I would have passed the
controlled parking zone entry signs – this would have been on
the A206, close to the junction with King William Walk, as I was
coming in from the Blackwall Tunnel. CPZ entry signs are
present, however I do not believe any reasonable motorist would
have expected that the restrictions on the sign would be in
force all the way over at Norman Road (halfway to Deptford!).
Upon further research and in line with the above, I found that
the council has failed to have proper regard to the guidance
from the Secretary of State on Parking Policy and Enforcement
which very clearly expresses the view that a motorist cannot
reasonably be expected to read, understand and remember the
parking restrictions at the entrance to a CPZ that covers an
area of more than a dozen streets.
The general rule is that there is no requirement to have signs
in individual streets where the location is part of a CPZ. Where
there is a yellow line with no sign in a controlled zone, it
does mean that CPZ restricted hours apply, if the yellow line is
situated within a valid and compliant CPZ. However, the
Secretary of State does recommend that conventional time plates
accompany yellow lines in larger CPZs.
The Greenwich CPZ has some 67 streets. Norman Road itself is a
long road. A motorist like myself entering the CPZ past the
signs on the A206 from the direction of the Blackwall Tunnel
would see no further signs driving onwards to the parking
location in question. That is by no means adequate signage over
such a large area.
For this reason the alleged contraventions, in the cases
pertaining to both PCNs, did not occur.
Regards,
#Post#: 72100--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich - parked on prescribed hours on restricted street
- physical PCN x2
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: May 18, 2025, 3:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Rather long-winded but the best you can do really. You need to
send it for each PCN.
If they reject they will probably offer you the discounts.
#Post#: 72103--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich - parked on prescribed hours on restricted street
- physical PCN x2
DIR By: Coldhands
Date: May 18, 2025, 3:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Is it worth also making reference within the representations to
the case that won at adjudication on the same grounds?
#Post#: 72105--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich - parked on prescribed hours on restricted street
- physical PCN x2
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 18, 2025, 3:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Coldhands link ---
>
> Is it worth also making reference within the representations
to the case that won at adjudication on the same grounds?
>
--- End Quote ---
Please tell us the Case Number so we can see it first.
#Post#: 72109--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich - parked on prescribed hours on restricted street
- physical PCN x2
DIR By: Coldhands
Date: May 18, 2025, 4:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> [quote author=Coldhands link=topic=6291.msg72103#msg72103
date=1747599880]
> Is it worth also making reference within the representations
to the case that won at adjudication on the same grounds?
>
--- End Quote ---
Please tell us the Case Number so we can see it first.
[/quote]
Case number 2160225793
Attached screenshot in a post above
#Post#: 72119--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich - parked on prescribed hours on restricted street
- physical PCN x2
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 18, 2025, 6:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Looking at the adjudication, I think you could reference it, and
include the sentences that state the CPZ is too large for merely
having entry signs and none inside the zone. It is 2016, so it
appears that Greenwich have, as is usual for London councils of
having totaly ignored the decision. They can get away with this,
because most people, (>95%) just cough-up when they get a PCN.
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