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#Post#: 70773--------------------------------------------------
PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
DIR By: Finderskeepers
Date: May 10, 2025, 6:10 am
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I live on a residential street with no parking restriction signs
but there are confusing double yellow lines in places. Some
years ago the pavement was narrowed or road widened to create
parking bays. However, existing double yellow lines were
incompletely removed (in one section they have been burnt off,
but other sections presumably cars were parked when the team
came to burn them off). To make matters worse there's a section
where there is a double yellow line painted alongside the
pavement of the bay, and an old double yellow left on the road
where the pavement used to be. So you end up parking in a bay
with double yellows either side of you. The double yellow lines
(which are all quite faded) are as shown - there is a
termination bar on the right of where you would park (assuming
facing direction of travel) but not on the left in the section
where there are parallel double lines. See image below.
Now, being a residential street people park wherever there is a
space. 99.9% of the time that's fine, but occasionally a parking
warden comes along and tickets cars parked in positions A or C.
If a local resident sees them we point out the idiocy of the
parking lines and they generally accept it's an error. We have
even had a council surveyor come out who said none the street
was officially recorded as being restricted so the wardens
shouldn't be issuing tickets. But I don't have written
confirmation of that.
The wardens have been out again lately and cars parked in
positions A and C have been ticketed for being "parked in a
restricted street during prescribed hours". I have no idea what
the prescribed hours are as there are no signs and I was led to
believe the street was not restricted. How can we both
challenge this and prevent recurrence?
[attachimg=1]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 70775--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: May 10, 2025, 6:33 am
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This section is for live PCNs. If you have one you want help
with, post it with no redactions.
If you just want a discussion, we can move it to the Flame Pit.
#Post#: 70777--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
DIR By: Finderskeepers
Date: May 10, 2025, 6:41 am
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I'm not seeking a discussion for the sake of it, I'm seeking to
challenge this PCN and prevent any further PCNs in these spaces
(A and C) on the grounds that the parking indications are
meaningless and incorrect.
The text of the PCN is as follows:
(Redacted local authority)
(Redacted PCN number)
Served on 9/5/2025
By Civil enforcement officer (Redacted identify)
Who had reason to believe that the following contravention had
occurred and that a penalty charge is now payable.
01
Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
Date of contravention: 9/5/2005
Time: 14:49
Location:
(Redacted road name and district)
Vehicle registration: (Redacted)
Vehicle make: (Redacted)
Vehicle colour: (Redacted)
Observed from: 14:43
Observed to: 14:49
Pay and display ticket: no
Pay and display expiry time (blank)
A penalty charge of £70 is now payable and must be paid not
later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with
the date on which this PCN was served.
The penalty charge will be reduced by a discount of 450% to £35
if it is paid not later than the last day of the period of 14
days beginning with the date on which this PCN was served.
Details on reverse for how to pay, etc etc
#Post#: 70778--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: May 10, 2025, 6:46 am
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How can we help if we don't even know where this is. The only
fact I can deduce from what you posted is that it's not London.
Have a look at other threads and read this:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
#Post#: 70781--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
DIR By: Finderskeepers
Date: May 10, 2025, 8:06 am
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Is this enough?
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4483075,-1.8669803,3a,75y,318.79h,72.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5qczKBjEdoFFi9b22js_0Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D17.918635596339158%26panoid%3D5qczKBjEdoFFi9b22js_0Q%26yaw%3D318.79167266577156!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDUwNy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 70782--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
DIR By: Finderskeepers
Date: May 10, 2025, 8:08 am
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The point being the yellow lines are inconsistent (partly burnt
off around previously parked cars), confusing and unnecessary,
plus residents have been advised by previous surveyor that they
should be ignored and in practice are always occupied by parked
cars..
#Post#: 70786--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: May 10, 2025, 8:57 am
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Park Road Sparkhill.
Here is the latest GSV
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/BC2cfpHEjv622ek88
It would appear you need to obtain any relevant TMO/TRO
HTML https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/birmingham/
--- Quote ---
>
> We have even had a council surveyor come out who said none the
street was officially recorded as being restricted
--- End Quote ---
Subject to what the experts here say (I am not one) you could
challenge along the lines of
I believe the alleged contravention did not occur as I have been
advised by a council official that there is no TRO in place for
this road.
Should you be minded to reject, I require you to produce the
relevant TRO.....
Have the Council put any photos up yet? If so, please post them
here.
#Post#: 70803--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: May 10, 2025, 10:59 am
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We can see what's happened here. In 2008 the footway was built
out to where the double yellow is and people were using it for
pavement parking. By 2022, that part of the footway had gone and
at some point double yellows were also correctly put in
alongside the kerb but bizarrely the other redundant double
yellows have been left and then the correct ones blanked but
still showing through.
In 2012 it seems the council thought better of the lines by the
kerb and you can see what looks like a dashed line indicating a
parking bay.
Naturally people use what looks like a parking bay behind the
silly yellow lines. While it's not against regulation to bung
yellows like this it's contrary to the traffic signs manual
guidance and I can't see this can be enforced.
I suspect a traffic order still specifies lines there - which
one though - and the council has been blindly maintaining the
bonkers ones.
As by 2025 the blanked ones that are actually in the right place
should they want to prohibit parking there now look decent.
HTML https://i.ibb.co/0yQTLCvr/Screenshot-2025-05-10-at-16-14-41.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/hWusqJS.png
HTML https://i.ibb.co/FL9vNrkC/Screenshot-2025-05-10-at-16-15-26.png
HTML https://i.ibb.co/vvQPGDfB/b3.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/p6kPTmZG/b2.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/VcGzp2rH/b1.jpg
#Post#: 70820--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
DIR By: Finderskeepers
Date: May 10, 2025, 1:10 pm
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Thanks - road must have briefly been narrowed/pavement widened
shortly before 2008 (covering the original yellow lines and
painting new ones). In 2012 the new pavement covering the road
and previous double yellows would have been removed (it's
unclear to me if the 2012 photo shows cuts in the road where the
extra pavement would have been dug out from, or a crude attempt
at indicating that part of the road is now to be a parking bay
but these have long since faded. Also the double yellows are not
continuous and don't have a perpendicular bar on the kerb side.)
This would explain why the furthest double yellows are so faded
- they must have been covered by a thin layer of stones and
tarmac for that four year period). The fresher yellows were left
behind on one side of the junction, and partially burnt away
(except around parked cars) on the other side of the junction,
position B on earlier schematic).
Hardly surprising everyone ignores them as they are completely
pointless, but how should I challenge a non-enforceable but
possibly non-rescinded TRO? I took a look at the previous link
to Birmingham TROs but there are over a hundred impenetrable
documents there and of the ones that looked possibly relevant ie
street parking, in only a few cases were any roads listed by
name.
On a separate matter, I found at least one old TRO which
included photocopies of letters sent to named individuals
regarding the illegal parking of their cars many years ago,
complete with the car reg and name and address of registered
keepers. Surely that's a breach of information governance, and
certainly shows that noone reads these documents now!
Anyway, that aside, I would appreciate advice both on
challenging this PCN and ensuring that future parking in this
spot is not going to risk further ticketing.
#Post#: 70893--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN and bonkers double yellow lines
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: May 11, 2025, 6:57 am
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Dear Parking, are you sitting comfortably? Then I’ll begin, with
the tale of two double yellow lines.
I’ll call these the Offside and Nearside Stories, corresponding
to the lines on either side of my car.
Offside Story
In the beginning, in the Genesis of Google, the footway was
built out to this line, which was then along the kerbside.
Residents were seen to park on the footway.
Then in the time we call the Great Bay Revolution, the footway
parking section of the footway was removed by the Gods of the
Highway to provide parking bays on the carriageway.
The Offside lines remained in a state called Splendid Isolation.
No doubt they have True Meaning but the Guardians of Traffic
Signs say:
13.4.6. If restrictions are imposed in a lay‑by, the lines
to diagram 1017 or 1018.1 should be laid at the back of the
lay‑by and not along the continuation of the main
carriageway edge. This should leave no room for doubt that
restrictions apply in the lay‑by.
And it did come to pass that parking was indicated by the Gods
of the Highway behind the Splendid Isolation.
Nearside Story
In keeping with the Guardians of Traffic Signs, lines were
painted by the correct kerbside place by the
Counter-Revolutionaries to the Great Bay Revolution but the
Revolutionary force quickly won a Darkness Battle that blanked
these lines.
But over time the Great Bay Revolutionaries have disbanded and
the Darkness Power has steadily diminished giving the
Counter-Revolutionaries – who also no longer exist – an
unexpected Historical Artefact: what we call There but Not
There.
So I hope you enjoyed these Tales and invite you to consider
whether One, Two or No contravention(s) occurred and look
forward to writing the next chapters in these stories.
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