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#Post#: 6460--------------------------------------------------
Reading Bus lane PCN
DIR By: bobthesod
Date: October 1, 2023, 3:28 am
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Apologies did a double post and cleared the wrong one!!
Starting again
Daughter in law had a letter from Reading about the infraction
Date of Detection 15/09/2023
Date of notice 29/09/2023
Delivered 30/09/2023
ISTR that in the past there was a procedural impropriety
challenge upheld where a council added telephone charges
The reverse states that calls to the 0343 number are charged at
up to 9p per minute from a landline if you pay by credit debit
card ( it also mentions the it is free
is included in free call packages)
The picture shoes her with the nearside wheels over the line the
offside are just outside it!
I said that it looked like she has been caught BUT there may be
a legal loophole we could use
I have told her to expect to be 70.00 lighter though
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 6461--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: October 1, 2023, 3:32 am
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You wrote in the original post: "What do i need to redact from
the PCN?"
Answere: Just the name and address - leave everything else in.
Also post a GSV link to the location.
#Post#: 6462--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: October 1, 2023, 4:00 am
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They're still using wording re statutory times that infers you
have to pay on one day and is not clear that the periods start
with the date of service.
Which has been poo pooed by adjudicators in the past but not
sure that any appellant has understood it properly.
#Post#: 6470--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: October 1, 2023, 5:21 am
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Video:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSbFWKBS5lM
There is the will / may flaw in the PCN, but it's more favoured
by some adjudicators than others. The 0343 number is irrelevant
as the service charge is zero, i.e. no money goes to the council
(on the contrary the council probably gets charged every time
you call).
Sorry if these are obvious questions but we have to ask: what
route did she take, and why did she enter the bus lane?
In the meantime I'll try and find out the make and model of the
CCTV camera.
#Post#: 6472--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 1, 2023, 5:51 am
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Here's the location.
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4267461,-0.9702378,3a,75y,214.2h,86.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEnPy-LK4nq9GvchiNQqCVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu
Bennett Road is off to the right at the traffic lights.
#Post#: 6482--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: October 1, 2023, 7:42 am
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--- Quote from: bobthesod link ---
>
> Cp
>
> I will find out if she was planning to turn left. However it
looks like she entered to lane at its commencement, so i doubt
that there is any wriggle room there
>
> Dancing Dad
>
> The notice does specify that the date of service is is 2
working dates after the date of notice. Making it the 3 Oct
>
> It also states that the penalty charge can be reduced if paid
within 21 days form the date of notice
>
> Now this is what confuses me. When i was doing OU Maths 101
(passed!!) it was impressed that mathematically, between 1 and
10 does not include 1 and 10
> Using that it could also be argued that in football a goal is
only scored when a ball passes between ( in the space within )
the goal posts, as hitting a post is not a goal.
> Using these two analogies could it be argued that the phrase
within 21 days is ambiguous as it does not specify whether the
charge should be paid before the 21st ( that is the other goal
post) , making the 20th day the last valid day to pay, or it
does include the 21st day which it doesn’t specify possible by
doing that you would be outwith the timescale laid down
>
> Perhaps i am being a bit of a grammatical pedant here,Albert
Haddock style, but would welcome thoughts
>
--- End Quote ---
It is not the date of service but the wording on timings.
You must make payment or challenge 28 days from the date of
service.
Not by the 28th day but literal is on the 28th day ie on one
specific day
And that date is late as 28 days from date of service is day 29.
Similar with discount period within 21 days of date of service
And another within and from in the bold, black paragraph at the
end of page 1.
Both within and from means that you start counting on the day
after the date of service, adding a day.
Statute is clear, count starts with date of service.
HC judgements have made it clear that terms like within are not
100% wins and it depends on context but statute has set
deadlines and the process is driven by those deadlines, they
must be clear and not ambiguous.
Reading has bugged me with this for years but seem to get away
with it, adjudicators using terms like substantially compliant
and when read as a whole.
#Post#: 6483--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
DIR By: bobthesod
Date: October 1, 2023, 8:23 am
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DD
I am tempted to go with this and baffle them with bullshit lol
Would i be correct in saying that if it goes to Tribunal and it
gets refused it is just the 70.00 payable. I might make her an
offer that i will pay the extra 35.00 if we lose so she is not
out of pocket
Having had another read of this, whilst i am not a professor of
English, i would say that the black box clarifies that even
though the initial info above it could be read as it be must
commenced on the 28th day, the box does say about the penalty
imposed should you not pay within the 21 day period and refers
to Reps, that any received outwith the 28 days will be
disregarded. which i would take that i can di this anytime
inside the 28days
Get rid of the black box and it is worth a punt, with the black
box i feel i would be standing on jelly as if i were an
adjudicator i would rely heavily on that bit to refuse
#Post#: 6487--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: October 1, 2023, 10:17 am
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--- Quote from: bobthesod link ---
>
> .........
> Get rid of the black box and it is worth a punt, with the
black box i feel i would be standing on jelly as if i were an
adjudicator i would rely heavily on that bit to refuse
>
--- End Quote ---
Read the black box again and tell us the last date you can make
payment or challenge?
Date please...based on Date of Notice of 29th Sept and the
information on the PCN.
To quote maths 101, show your workings.
#Post#: 6500--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
DIR By: bobthesod
Date: October 2, 2023, 4:23 am
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DD
Had several goes at this and still come up 30/10 ( unless the
council uses the DOS as day 1)
As date of presumed service being the second working day being
02/10 this is day 0
Day 1 beginning at 00.00 3/10 and day 28 ending at 23.59 on
30/10
The first para reads that you must pay on day 28 being 30/10
The reduced payment can be made within 21 days from date of
service give that as being offered up to close of business on
23/10 ( which could be 22/10 )
The out of time for reps is being received after day 28
......31/10 onwards
Now the blocked box gives a cut off date of within 28 days from
date of service ..again being close of business on 30/10 so
that clarifies the out of time date
You mention statute. Is this worded as per POFA where the word
MUST is noted ( in the ppc MUST invite the Reg keeper etc....)
as being procedural impropriety?
. The only additional analogy for the first para i can see to
give the adjudicator is the taking of pills where you must take
them at 18.00 next day... not before..not after... but at
however i would be wary of them thinking i might be extracting
it somewhat, and tell me to jog on
Based on that i wouldn’t feel too confident of taking it forward
I have seen Hippocrates sticky on pepipoo about successful
cases.. what would be the best heading to look for that might
enable us to give Reading a bloody nose
#Post#: 6502--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: October 2, 2023, 4:39 am
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Have you looked here?
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-spreadsheet/
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