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#Post#: 69669--------------------------------------------------
Greenwich PCN - 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction
when prohibited
DIR By: GoldFishBowl25
Date: May 2, 2025, 3:53 am
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Hi all,
Please can you have a look at this PCN and video, and let me
know if you think I have grounds to appeal or not?
PCN video
HTML https://imgur.com/a/DXD4Q6J
My husband (this time) could have cleared the junction box
entirely, there was enough clearance in front to do that - I
remember saying it to him in the car at the time (having gone
through a similar process with my dad's earlier PCN). My hubby
replied it was fine, he was out of the box... turns out not
entirely!
Please let me know your thoughts - thanks so much for your help.
GoldFishBowl25
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 69680--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich PCN - 31J - Entering and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited
DIR By: MrChips
Date: May 2, 2025, 4:30 am
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To receive a PCN for that is a complete joke and brings the
council into disrepute, imo.
I give you 100% chance of beating this. For one the car is
barely in the box at all, but also it's abundantly clear that
the vehicle did not have to stop within the box junction due to
the presence of stationary vehicles as there is a decent sized
gap ahead.
Even so, I would not be surprised to see Greenwich turn down any
representations to this effect, although I suspect they would
throw in the towel if you then took it to the tribunal.
#Post#: 69688--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich PCN - 31J - Entering and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited
DIR By: GoldFishBowl25
Date: May 2, 2025, 5:35 am
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Thanks for responding.
I agree - this is just easy money for them isn't it.
I've just submitted a challenge - let's see what happens next!
Thanks again :)
#Post#: 69696--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich PCN - 31J - Entering and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: May 2, 2025, 5:52 am
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--- Quote from: GoldFishBowl25 link ---
>
>
> I've just submitted a challenge - let's see what happens next!
>
> Thanks again :)
>
--- End Quote ---
May we see what you have written, please?
#Post#: 69756--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich PCN - 31J - Entering and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited
DIR By: GoldFishBowl25
Date: May 2, 2025, 9:58 am
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Hi John,
ChatGPT generated - it looked okay to me, so I used it (I didn't
not fact-check the case though!), and obviously I filled in the
personal details
[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[City, Postcode]
[Email Address]
[Phone Number]
Date: [Insert Date]
Greenwich Council
Parking Services
[Insert Address]
[City, Postcode]
Re: Challenge to PCN [Insert PCN Number] – Entering and Stopping
in a Box Junction
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice
(PCN) referenced above, issued for allegedly entering and
stopping in a box junction at [insert location] on [insert
date].
Upon reviewing the video footage of the incident, it is clear
that while my vehicle entered the box junction, it did so with
sufficient clearance. The very tail end of my vehicle briefly
touched the end of the box junction, but I did not fully
obstruct the junction, and there was ample space ahead to
continue moving forward. At no point did my vehicle block the
flow of traffic or create an obstruction, which aligns with the
spirit of the regulations governing box junctions.
Relevant Legislation and Guidance:
The Road Traffic (London) Act 2003, Section 16(3): This
legislation specifies that a vehicle must not stop within a box
junction unless it is unavoidable due to stationary traffic. In
my case, my vehicle did not stop within the junction but only
briefly entered the end of the box, where there was sufficient
space to move forward and exit without causing obstruction.
The Highway Code (Rule 174): This rule specifies that drivers
should only stop in a box junction when they are prevented from
moving by stationary traffic. As seen in the footage, I did not
remain stationary in the box but was able to continue forward.
Case Law - London Borough of Waltham Forest v. Jamil (2015): In
this case, the adjudicator ruled that a minor infringement of
the box junction at the tail end, where there was clear room to
move forward, did not constitute a contravention as long as the
driver did not cause an obstruction or remain stationary within
the box.
In light of these facts and the supporting legal framework, I
respectfully request that you reconsider this penalty charge.
The minor touch of the junction at the rear of my vehicle, while
the front of the car was clear to move forward, should not be
penalized, as the vehicle did not obstruct the flow of traffic
or create any hazard.
Please confirm that the PCN has been cancelled or provide
further details should you require additional information to
review this challenge.
Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.
Yours sincerely,
[Your Name]
[PCN Number]
#Post#: 69763--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich PCN - 31J - Entering and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited
DIR By: john_s_wf
Date: May 2, 2025, 11:35 am
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Looks like a complete hash to be: -
The Road Traffic (London) Act 2003, Section 16(3): This
legislation specifies that a vehicle must not stop within a box
junction unless it is unavoidable due to stationary traffic. In
my case, my vehicle did not stop within the junction but only
briefly entered the end of the box, where there was sufficient
space to move forward and exit without causing obstruction.
The Highway Code (Rule 174): This rule specifies that drivers
should only stop in a box junction when they are prevented from
moving by stationary traffic. As seen in the footage, I did not
remain stationary in the box but was able to continue forward.
#Post#: 69770--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich PCN - 31J - Entering and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited
DIR By: GoldFishBowl25
Date: May 2, 2025, 12:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Oh dear - I've submitted it now via the Greenwich portal. But
it appears I can still submit more ecidence/information via the
portal - what would you suggest?
Thanks
#Post#: 69773--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich PCN - 31J - Entering and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited
DIR By: MrChips
Date: May 2, 2025, 12:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
See what others say, but I'd just let it be. They should be
cancelling this on the strength of the video alone, irrespective
of what you wrote!
As councils tend to reject even the most reasonable of
representations, submitting them is usually just a means to get
access to the independent tribunal in any case.
But, for future reference, please run them past us first. What
ChatGPT has come up with is several paragraphs of gobbledegook!
#Post#: 72643--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich PCN - 31J - Entering and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited
DIR By: GoldFishBowl25
Date: May 21, 2025, 3:11 pm
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Hi there,
This is what I got back from Greenwich Parking Services - a
notice of rejection of representation.
There was still space to move forward and completely out of the
junction box though... you can just about see that in the video
footage - can I still appeal on that point?
Thank you - and this time I will confirm any responses with you
before replying/appealing to Greenwich.
Best
GoldFishBowl25
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 72913--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich PCN - 31J - Entering and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited
DIR By: MrChips
Date: May 23, 2025, 6:00 am
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Rejection is no surprise, although it reflects badly on
Greenwich. They are rather selective in their interpretation of
the regulations, and basically say that stopping in the box
junction is not allowed. This is an oversimplification; what the
rules actually prohibit is entering the box junction in
circumstances where the driver has to stop within the box
junction due to stationary vehicles.
Next step would be independent adjudication. You only included
one page of the rejection so I don't know if they've reoffered
the discount or not. If they haven't then it's a no brainer to
take this to adjudication as the penalty will not increase if
you lose. If they have reoffered the discount, then you need to
be aware that the discount is no longer on offer should you lose
at adjudication. However, in my opinion, your odds of winning
this at adjudication are close to 100% as it is self evident
from the video that the driver didn't have to stop where he did
and could have moved forward however many millimetres were
necessary to completely clear the junction.
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