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#Post#: 70438--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: Mike_D
Date: May 7, 2025, 1:19 pm
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Thanks, duly noted.
I made it with the recommended wording, so let's wait till they
respond.
Cheers!
#Post#: 70509--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: SpiderWriter
Date: May 8, 2025, 5:50 am
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Isn't there a right turn exception for box junctions:
The Traffic Signs Regulations and
General Directions 2016
Box junctions
11.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow
criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in
Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a
vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to
stop within the box
junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) Subject to sub-paragraph (4) the marking when placed as a
box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(c) of the definition of
that expression conveys the prohibition that a person must not
cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle
has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of
oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box
junction.
(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of
a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of
that expression, apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of
turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the
vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an
oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst
waiting to complete a right turn.
#Post#: 70511--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: MrChips
Date: May 8, 2025, 6:11 am
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The vehicle behind which the OP stops has already completed its
right turn (in my opinion).
Besides which, adjudicators seem to interpret this exemption in
such a way that it doesn't apply if the exit is blocked (albeit
I don't think that's what it says).
#Post#: 70516--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: SpiderWriter
Date: May 8, 2025, 6:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I must be missing your point.
The exception is clear. If you're turning right and get stuck in
the box by other traffic. You're exempt from the rule. It may be
something Council bods ignore. But don't they ignore most rules
to issue PCNs in the first instance.
The rule is clear and it might be a win at Tribunal because
that's the only time the Law is really considered. It's worth
considering in my opinion.
#Post#: 70517--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: MrChips
Date: May 8, 2025, 6:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The exemption is quite detailed and includes, amongst other
things, that the vehicle you are waiting behind and that is
preventing you from leaving the box is stationary while "waiting
to complete a right turn".
In this video, the vehicle the OP is waiting behind is
stationary outside the box and already fully aligned with the
road it has turned into (or at least that's how it looks to me).
Thus I think it is no longer waiting to complete the right
turn, it's already completed it.
#Post#: 70535--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: May 8, 2025, 7:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This situation is usually seen as nothing to do with the right
turn exemption as it is a T junction with no oncoming traffic.
But trying to judge such an exit from way back before a large
box and then turning is unfair but it is what it is. The box is
there to help people turning right but then you can become a
victim.
It does look like you may have be heading to the left lane but
the van got there first - you have to be aggressive in such
situations.
Not showing the entry is probably the best bet plus that. Look
where the stop line is on the side road.
HTML https://i.ibb.co/kgpSPjrf/Media1-ezgif-com-optimize.gif
HTML https://i.ibb.co/0V6yg72z/Screenshot-2025-05-08-at-13-48-16.png
#Post#: 70537--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: May 8, 2025, 8:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I've had a look at the tribunal. You could check the PCN wording
against one case. The lack of entry allowed in others. A refused
right turn case.
--------
Case Details
Case reference 2240046143
Appellant Jeffrey Gentzler
Authority London Borough of Havering
VRM EK60LTA
PCN Details
PCN HG60759156
Contravention date 04 Oct 2023
Contravention time 16:17:00
Contravention location Main Road / upper Brentwood Road
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date -
Decision Date 16 Mar 2024
Adjudicator Andrew Harman
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
This appeal was listed for face to face hearing before me today.
Neither party to the proceedings attended. It now falls to me to
decide the appeal on the papers. The contravention alleged in
these proceedings is that this vehicle entered and stopped in a
box junction when prohibited. The council relies upon its online
footage of the incident to prove this contravention. That
footage opens with the vehicle already inside the box at its far
end. It does not show the vehicle's entry to the box and thus
the state of the box and its exit lanes at that time. On this
footage all elements of this contravention have not been proved.
I allow the appeal.
---------
Case Details
Case reference 2240029712
Appellant Patrick Hallissey
Authority London Borough of Havering
VRM LF17BZD
PCN Details
PCN HG60759167
Contravention date 04 Oct 2023
Contravention time 16:18:00
Contravention location Main Road / Upper Brentwood Road
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date -
Decision Date 12 Apr 2024
Adjudicator John Lane
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
The penalty notice in this case was issued under Section 6 of
the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003.
The local authority is entitled to issue the penalty notice to
the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle
concerned.
There is no time constraint by which the local authority shall
serve their notice of rejection. For some reason however they
have said in their penalty notice that they will serve the
decision within the period of 56 days.
In addition, the video evidence does not show the vehicle enter
the box junction. It only shows the vehicle on the box junction.
I will allow the appeal on both limbs.
--------
Case Details
Case reference 2240327073
Appellant Kuttykrishnan Ramswaroop
Authority London Borough of Havering
VRM LB60LLU
PCN Details
PCN HG61195227
Contravention date 29 May 2024
Contravention time 18:26:00
Contravention location Main Road / Upper Brentwood Road
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date -
Decision Date 03 Sep 2024
Adjudicator Henry Michael Greenslade
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
At this scheduled personal hearing the Appellant was represented
by Mr Morgan, who attended in person but the Enforcement
Authority did not attend and were not represented.
Under Paragraph 11(1) in Part 7 of Schedule 9 to the Traffic
Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 a box junction
marking conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a
vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to
stop within the box marking due to the presence of a stationary
vehicle.
The Penalty Charge Notice was issued under Section 4(1) of the
London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 on
the basis of information provided by a camera or other device.
There appears to be no dispute that the vehicle was at this
location, as shown in the closed-circuit television (cctv)
images produced by the Enforcement Authority.
The Appellant’s case is that the Penalty Charge Notice is not
compliant as regards the ground for making original
representations to the Enforcement Authority.
Paragraph 1(4) in Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and
Transport for London Act 2003 provides that the grounds are:
(a) that the recipient (i) never was the owner of the vehicle in
question; (ii) had ceased to be its owner before the date on
which the penalty charge was alleged to have become payable; or
(iii) became its owner after that date;
(b) that there was no (i) contravention of a prescribed order;
or (ii) failure to comply with an indication; or (iii)
contravention of the lorry ban order, under subsection (5) or
(7) of the said section 4 as the case may be;
(c) that at the time the alleged contravention or failure took
place the person who was in control of the vehicle was in
control of the vehicle without the consent of the owner;
(d) that the recipient is a vehicle-hire firm and (i) the
vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that
firm under a vehicle hiring agreement; and (ii) the person
hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging his
liability in respect of any penalty charge notice issued in
respect of the vehicle during the currency of the hiring
agreement; or
(e) that the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in
the circumstances of the case.
The grounds for representations stated on the Penalty Charge
Notice are:
* The alleged contravention did not occur
* You
– were never the owner of the vehicle in question
– had cease to be the owner owner before the date on which the
alleged contravention occurred, or
– became its owner after that date;
* The vehicle had been permitted to remain at rest in place in
question by a person who was in control of the vehicle without
the the owner’s consent
* That you are a vehicle-hire firm and –
– the vehicle in question was on hire under a vehicle hiring
agreement at the time of the contravention, and
– the person hiring the vehicle had signed a statement of
liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served during
the period of the hiring agreement;
* The penalty charge exceeds the amount applicable in the
circumstances of the case.
* The traffic order (except where it is an order made under
Schedule 9 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984) which is
alleged to have been contravened is invalid.
The wording on the Penalty Charge Notice does not comply with
the strict requirements of Paragraph 11(1).
Accordingly, this appeal must be allowed.
---------
Case Details
Case reference 2240394900
Appellant Savas Betton
Authority London Borough of Havering
VRM FP17FBK
PCN Details
PCN HG61265038
Contravention date 28 Jun 2024
Contravention time 19:29:00
Contravention location Main Road / Upper Brentwood Road
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date -
Decision Date 21 Nov 2024
Adjudicator Michael Burke
Appeal decision Appeal refused
Direction Full penalty charge notice amount stated to be paid
within 28 days.
Reasons
The allegation on the face of the PCN in this case is entering
and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The prohibition
is more formally stated in terms that:
‘a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so
that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the
presence of stationary vehicles’.
The above prohibition does not apply where the driver enters the
box junction for the purpose of turning right and stops the
vehicle only for
‘so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by an
oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst
waiting to complete a right turn’.
The Appellant does not dispute that he entered and stopped in
the box junction but claims the right hand turn exemption as he
was prevented from completing the right hand turn by a bus which
was also turning right. However, the enforcement camera footage
shows that even if the bus had not been there the Appellant
would not have been able to clear the box junction without
stopping as there was insufficient space in front of the bus.
The stationary vehicles which prevented both the bus and the
Appellant clearing the box junction were either proceeding
straight ahead or had completed their right hand turn. It
follows the right hand turn exemption cannot apply.
Having considered all the evidence I am satisfied that the
contravention occurred and that the PCN was properly issued and
served. I am not satisfied that any exemption applies.
#Post#: 70541--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: May 8, 2025, 8:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
2240327073 was the only one allowed on wording itself. They have
now changed it of course but the website issue is for later.
#Post#: 70545--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: MrChips
Date: May 8, 2025, 8:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
>
> Reasons
> The allegation on the face of the PCN in this case is entering
and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The prohibition
is more formally stated in terms that:
>
> ‘a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction
so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to
the presence of stationary vehicles’.
>
> The above prohibition does not apply where the driver enters
the box junction for the purpose of turning right and stops the
vehicle only for
>
> ‘so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by
an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst
waiting to complete a right turn’.
>
> The Appellant does not dispute that he entered and stopped in
the box junction but claims the right hand turn exemption as he
was prevented from completing the right hand turn by a bus which
was also turning right. However, the enforcement camera footage
shows that even if the bus had not been there the Appellant
would not have been able to clear the box junction without
stopping as there was insufficient space in front of the bus.
The stationary vehicles which prevented both the bus and the
Appellant clearing the box junction were either proceeding
straight ahead or had completed their right hand turn. It
follows the right hand turn exemption cannot apply.
>
> Having considered all the evidence I am satisfied that the
contravention occurred and that the PCN was properly issued and
served. I am not satisfied that any exemption applies.
>
--- End Quote ---
This is where I disagree with the interpretation. The wording
of the regulation is drafted such that if the exemption applies
(i.e. you stop behind someone stationary while completing a
right turn) then the original prohibition of entering and
stopping does not apply.
Michael Burke is saying that the exemption does not apply
because the vehicle in front, while turning right, committed a
contravention by entering in the first place. Taking his
comments at face value, surely the bus committed a contravention
but not the vehicle waiting behind the bus.
#Post#: 85676--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: Mike_D
Date: August 14, 2025, 7:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello guys,
I have received a rejection to my formal representation: LINK
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mopurmvik6h52liy4iybk/PCN-formal-rep.-rejection.pdf?rlkey=sopa8fm5er0cfpiddo5nphvqa&st=4ymjrure&dl=0
It is dated 29.07.2025, so it must have come right after I had
left for my holiday (on 1.08). I found it in the evening
yesterday, right after coming back home.
There are still 12 days to take it to the London Tribunals, but
as I am new to this - do you have any advice on the wording,
arguments to be used, etc.?
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