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#Post#: 68499--------------------------------------------------
LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box junction
DIR By: Mike_D
Date: April 24, 2025, 12:56 pm
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Hello Guys,
I am not done yet with appealing against one ridiculous PCN HERE
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/lb-havering-code-62-one-wheel-over-a-'footpath'/,<br
/>while I just received another one:
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lwur6znny7c37k15p1d3m/PCN_Boxjunction.pdf?rlkey=ilymfpkyjsd5l3zgt40qejh3k&st=re3qodbs&dl=0
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lwur6znny7c37k15p1d3m/PCN_Boxjunction.pdf?rlkey=ilymfpkyjsd5l3zgt40qejh3k&st=re3qodbs&dl=0
This one is more tricky - the traffic was quite fluid when I
entered the crossing and I was pretty sure I was going to have
enough room to get out of the box.
I was in a hurry, and I remember standing there just of a second
or two, but the video shows that apparently it was a bit longer.
To make it easier to watch the video: parking.havering.gov.uk
HTML https://parking.havering.gov.uk/pages/OnlineReferenceEntry.aspx?loadtype=NOTICEREVIEW
VRN: NH21FFV
PCN no. HG61859178
Is it "appealable" at all (with any chance for a successful
outcome) or is it just better to pay the discounted fee in this
case (which I would hate to do for my "beloved" council)?
#Post#: 68517--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: MrChips
Date: April 24, 2025, 3:04 pm
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Normally the video has to show the precise moment of entry into
the box junction as this is when the offence if committed. In
your case your vehicle enters the box off screen, and we do not
know at what moment that was or precise traffic conditions.
See what others think but you may be able to beat it on that
basis.
#Post#: 68534--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: April 24, 2025, 5:28 pm
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+1
I was just reading cases on this very subject. It is generally
agreed by London Tribunals, is that the contravention occurs
when entering the box, ("cause a vehicle to enter the
box......that it has to stop due to the presence of stationary
vehicle")
As the video is the sole evidence, those that do not show entry
don't show the contravention.
#Post#: 68581--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: April 25, 2025, 5:08 am
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There is a key case on this. I won one v Kingston last year too.
And they STILL have an incorrect ground on their PCN re traffic
order!
Website is still defective:
A- The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of
contravention
- I had sold the vehicle before that date
- I had bought the vehicle after that date
- I have never owned that vehicle
C - The vehicle was taken without my consent
D - We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E - The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F - There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement
Authority
G - The traffic order contravened is invalid
H - The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty
Charge had already been paid
I - Other
#Post#: 68845--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: Mike_D
Date: April 26, 2025, 2:48 pm
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OK, but being the devil’s advocate:
If the contravention only occurs when entering the box, and the
video should be showing this (while it is not), then that may be
a ground to appeal indeed – but just from a purely legal
perspective.
In fact, the camera zooms out in 0:18 and shows almost the
entire junction (BUT still not the place I was standing at and
entering the junction from!).
Might they argue that even though the exact moment of me
entering the junction is not visible on the video, it still
shows that I could have clearly seen at that moment that there
was no room to leave it? That Toyota C-HR before my car was
standing there for quite a long time before I even appeared on
the video (thus – allegedly entered the junction)…
On the other hand -could I say that I was going to take the left
lane leaving the junction just after that beige Nissan Micra,
but I looked in the mirror and got scared by that big van coming
right behind me at high speed – so I stayed on the right lane
for my safety, not blocking any traffic after all?
I am trying to see all the angles here before I charge at the
wall head-on…
#Post#: 68884--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: April 27, 2025, 6:09 am
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2240040646; 2230099245.
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Place%20Invaders%20Ltd.doc
#Post#: 68887--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: Neil B
Date: April 27, 2025, 6:39 am
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When did London PCNs increase because this one is still at
£130/65 ?
Obviously we cant't use 'penalty exceeded' but maybe 'stupidy
exceeded' ?
#Post#: 68890--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: April 27, 2025, 7:02 am
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--- Quote from: Neil B link ---
>
> When did London PCNs increase because this one is still at
£130/65 ?
>
> Obviously we cant't use 'penalty exceeded' but maybe 'stupidy
exceeded' ?
>
--- End Quote ---
7th April. I used "subceeded" recently!
#Post#: 69084--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: Mike_D
Date: April 28, 2025, 2:13 pm
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Guys, if I were to go for it, do you have any recommended
wording that I should use for this appeal?
PS I signed the petition, so did my wife and my daughter ;)
#Post#: 69086--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 31J, entering and stopping in a box
junction
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: April 28, 2025, 2:33 pm
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1. The penalty charge as stated on the PCN subceeds the correct
amount which came into force on 7th April.
2. The video does not show the situation upon alleged entry into
the YBJ and so it follows that the alleged contravention is not
proved. I refer you to the following cases:
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Place%20Invaders%20Ltd.doc
In light of the above, please cancel the PCN.
If they reject, I am happy to assist.
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