DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 68038--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, code 31 entering/stopping box junction,
yellow box, High Road/Bush Road E11
DIR By: MrChips
Date: April 22, 2025, 6:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Just to build on Neil's response, the key part of the
contravention wording is that you "had to" stop due to
stationary vehicles. We frequently win cases where the council
sends a PCN but the video shows sufficient space for a car,
which is stationary in the box junction, to be able move forward
and exit the box. I.e. it stopped in the box junction but it
didn't have to.
In your case, the video is opaque as to how much space you left
in front. I estimate you were only in the box by around one
wheel diameter (which for a Renault Clio I believe will be
around 40 cm). It's for the council to prove you committed a
contravention so I'd like to think that a fair minded
adjudicator would agree there is insufficient evidence you "had
to" stop where you did. The test is on the balance of
probabilities so you would only need to create sufficient doubt
as to this fact rather than prove your case.
40 cm is not very long, and I would suspect, unless you had
deliberately got as close as possible to the vehicle in front as
you knew you were likely to encroach into the box junction, that
you would routinely leave at least 1 metre to the car in front.
Most cars these days have distance sensors which would enable
you slowly to creep forward very closely to the car in front
without fear of an actual collision meaning you could have
fairly easily moved closer and out of the box if you had
realised you had left your back wheel inside.
The council will never accept this argument, so your choices
will be either to settle at £65 while the discount is still
available, or take it to the tribunal where it's £0 if you win
and £130 if you lose.
#Post#: 68089--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, code 31 entering/stopping box junction,
yellow box, High Road/Bush Road E11
DIR By: Neil B
Date: April 22, 2025, 10:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It would be foolish to not at least make representations to the
council on the matters raised.
They often mess up their response, potentially giving you
further angles.
#Post#: 68094--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, code 31 entering/stopping box junction,
yellow box, High Road/Bush Road E11
DIR By: MrChips
Date: April 22, 2025, 10:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If you are minded to submit representations I'm happy to draft
something - please confirm.
#Post#: 68095--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, code 31 entering/stopping box junction,
yellow box, High Road/Bush Road E11
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: April 22, 2025, 10:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Back in a long lost time in a far away forum, a tale of one
council was told, where they had due regard for:
The critical factor here is that the drivers have a reasonable
line of sight to make their judgements. We should apply
discretion. We have to weigh up the good momentum of traffic
travelling freely over box junctions while not trying to make
people treat it like a stop line or give way line unnecessarily.
And:
On large type box junctions, cars and vans with less than 50% of
their length over the box should have discretion applied if they
are not an obstruction. On smaller box junctions 25% "grace”
would apply as long as they are not an obstruction.
Such a fairy tale!
As for the case here, the car behind the OP had plenty of space
to exit on the left, as did the OP if quicker off the mark. I do
think this big box, exit area and traffic scenario do not fall
into the strict criterion of having to stop on the other side
and the above first point applies but these days councils have
lost all reason.
#Post#: 68146--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, code 31 entering/stopping box junction,
yellow box, High Road/Bush Road E11
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: April 22, 2025, 3:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> Back in a long lost time in a far away forum, a tale of one
council was told, where they had due regard for:
>
> The critical factor here is that the drivers have a reasonable
line of sight to make their judgements. We should apply
discretion. We have to weigh up the good momentum of traffic
travelling freely over box junctions while not trying to make
people treat it like a stop line or give way line unnecessarily.
>
> And:
>
> On large type box junctions, cars and vans with less than 50%
of their length over the box should have discretion applied if
they are not an obstruction. On smaller box junctions 25%
"grace” would apply as long as they are not an obstruction.
>
> Such a fairy tale!
>
> As for the case here, the car behind the OP had plenty of
space to exit on the left, as did the OP if quicker off the
mark. I do think this big box, exit area and traffic scenario do
not fall into the strict criterion of having to stop on the
other side and the above first point applies but these days
councils have lost all reason.
>
--- End Quote ---
But as we all know, greed prevailed !
#Post#: 68188--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, code 31 entering/stopping box junction,
yellow box, High Road/Bush Road E11
DIR By: PaulCE11
Date: April 23, 2025, 3:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your offer to draft something
[member=43]MrChips[/member], that would be very much
appreciated, and thanks to everyone for your continued
knowledge!
#Post#: 68388--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, code 31 entering/stopping box junction,
yellow box, High Road/Bush Road E11
DIR By: MrChips
Date: April 24, 2025, 2:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
We've still got a few days before the discount expires so I'll
probably draft something at the weekend.
#Post#: 68980--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, code 31 entering/stopping box junction,
yellow box, High Road/Bush Road E11
DIR By: Glitch
Date: April 28, 2025, 4:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
No one has mentioned a key part of the regulations.
TSRGD says:
'Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person MUST NOT CAUSE A
VEHICLE TO ENTER the box junction so that the vehicle has to
stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary
vehicles.'
Surely the adjudicator is going to look carefully at the footage
when the OP enters the box junction. Then what happens to
prevent exit.
#Post#: 68993--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, code 31 entering/stopping box junction,
yellow box, High Road/Bush Road E11
DIR By: MrChips
Date: April 28, 2025, 6:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
That's the hope, yes.
Reps to follow later today.
#Post#: 69161--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, code 31 entering/stopping box junction,
yellow box, High Road/Bush Road E11
DIR By: MrChips
Date: April 29, 2025, 4:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
OK, here you go. Discount expires at the end of tomorrow so
give it 24 hours for others to comment if you can before
submitting online (and taking a screenshot as you do so).
Dear Waltham Forest,
Re PCN: FR65232814
I would like to submit representations against this PCN on the
grounds that the contravention did not occur.
You will be aware that a box junction contravention only occurs
if a vehicle HAS TO [my emphasis] stop within the box junction
due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Put another way, if
there is sufficient room to exit the box junction then no
contravention is committed even if a vehicle stops with a part
of the vehicle within the box junction. In this instance, having
reviewed the footage I can see my vehicle was only inside the
box junction by a trivial amount, and had it moved forward just
one wheel diameter (around 40 centimetres) it would have cleared
the box junction markings.
Accordingly it would only be the case that my vehicle had to
stop within the box junction if there was less than half a metre
of space to the car in front (this is broadly the width within
which a pedestrian could easily pass between the two vehicles).
The angle of the camera footage provides very limited evidence
of how much clear space I had in front of my vehicle, especially
taking into account the foreshortening effect of a zoomed in
video taken from that angle. However, it seems to me very
unlikely that my vehicle could not have moved forward the
required distance to remove the rear wheel from within the box
junction markings had I known they had not been completely
cleared.
Should you reject these representations please confirm that you
have carefully considered (and understood!) my point above by
explaining the basis for your belief that there was not space
for my vehicle to move forwards sufficiently to clear the box.
In particular I kindly request that a templated statement of the
sort that "the CCTV evidence confirms the vehicle entered and
stopped in the box junction without ensuring that the exit was
clear" is backed up with some sort of explanation as to how
precisely this has been "confirmed" by Waltham Forest given, as
per my argument above, a cursory review of the video images
alone does not confirm the length of clear space ahead in any
way. I emphasise again that merely stopping within a box
junction is not in itself a contravention, there has to be
insufficient space to a stationary vehicle ahead to allow the
vehicle to exit the box junction.
Notwithstanding my main point, above, the level of incursion
within the box junction is also so trivial as to constitute de
minimis in any event. Please see London Tribunal decision
2240537258 for guidelines of what is considered a de minimis
offence (i.e. a vehicle stopping with only its back wheels on or
within box junction markings). Further, I note the box junction
markings within which the rear of my vehicle was overlapping is
adjacent to diagonal white markings which mean that vehicles
should not enter that part of the carriageway (unless completely
necessary and safe to do so). As such, not only was my
vehicle's incursion of a de minimis nature, but it was also not
obstructing any part of the road junction over which other
vehicles would be allowed to pass through as part of their
normal use of the junction.
For these reasons I look forward to confirmation that the PCN
has been cancelled.
Kind regards,
*****************************************************
Page 2 of 5
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page