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#Post#: 6060--------------------------------------------------
Bexley PCN - Box Junction. Last day to pay reduced charge
DIR By: S23
Date: September 25, 2023, 6:00 pm
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Hi all,
Bexley incident date 05/09/23. Postal PCN dated 13/09/23 for
'31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
(camera enforcement)'.
Google street view link here
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/uMy7geeALTzCUPxS7
PCN and photo/video evidence here
HTML https://drive.proton.me/urls/5KBM6JGW44#cGTVqFD4VS9f
Are any of the following valid grounds for appeal?
1) Lines are broken or box unclear
2) Distance to view box is too close (+/- point 1)
3) Not able to move in any other direction - boxed in by car
behind and oncoming lorry (see video)
4) Any other reason?
If no clear grounds for appeal identified today, I will pay it
tonight (26/09/23) as I believe this is when the reduced charge
of £65 ends
Thank you in advance
#Post#: 6063--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bexley PCN - Box Junction. Last day to pay reduced charge
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 25, 2023, 6:15 pm
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Two things: -
1. Road markings are clear enough for an adjudicator. They may
not be in rain and/or darkness, of course.
2. Video shows you stopped only partially in the box, but I
think too far in to make a de minimis argument.
Sorry I'm only looking at this past midnight ! However, I can't
see anything to submit reps on, to be honest, although the PCN
may contain errors, but I'm not up-to-speed on the Act at the
top of the PCN. This and its regulations defines what must be in
a PCN
#Post#: 6064--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bexley PCN - Box Junction. Last day to pay reduced charge
DIR By: S23
Date: September 25, 2023, 6:25 pm
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Two things: -
>
> 1. Road markings are clear enough for an adjudicator. They may
not be in rain and/or darkness, of course.
>
> 2. Video shows you stopped only partially in the box, but I
think too far in to make a de minimis argument.
>
> Sorry I'm only looking at this past midnight ! However, I
can't see anything to submit reps on, to be honest, although the
PCN may contain errors, but I'm not up-to-speed on the Act at
the top of the PCN. This and its regulations defines what must
be in a PCN
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for your thoughts. Still time to pay the reduced
charge
Would be interested in other users thoughts and also wording
relating to the PCN, etc. Many thanks
#Post#: 6066--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bexley PCN - Box Junction. Last day to pay reduced charge
DIR By: mrmustard
Date: September 26, 2023, 1:45 am
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There are wording errors on the pcn but I am away cycling and
cannot explain their technical nature before tomorrow when I am
back at my desk. If this thread had been started earlier I could
have responded earlier - this is guidance for all, not the OP in
this case. Experts have full and busy lives
#Post#: 6069--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bexley PCN - Box Junction. Last day to pay reduced charge
DIR By: mrmustard
Date: September 26, 2023, 2:52 am
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My train home is half an hour later than I thought so here I am.
On the front of the PCN it says that representations made more
than 28 days after the date above (date of PCN) may be
disregarded. In the next line they get it right, 28 days after
service for representations. (this legislation has two different
28 day periods for payment and for repesentations which is
probably a drafting error but is upheld at the tribunal).
I would expect that to be a winner at the tribunal but there are
no guarantees.
#Post#: 6079--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bexley PCN - Box Junction. Last day to pay reduced charge
DIR By: MrChips
Date: September 26, 2023, 4:28 am
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Had a look at the video.
One aspect you can also include in any representations/appeal is
that the video starts with your vehicle already within the box.
The offence occurs at the point of entry, not the point of
stopping, and there are numerous tribunal decisions (including
one that is highlighted as a 'key case' by London Tribunals
itself) where appeals are upheld due to the video footage not
containing the key moment of entry.
Yours is a bit borderline as an adjudicator may decide that the
footage seems to be close enough to the point of entry that they
can reasonably infer traffic conditions at the point of entry,
but it's definitely something to highlight in addition to Mr
Mustard's point.
#Post#: 6165--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bexley PCN - Box Junction. Last day to pay reduced charge
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: September 26, 2023, 4:37 pm
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If Mr Mustard says there's a good argument, then at least 9
times out of 10 he will win at the tribunal (possibly more), so
I'd forget about the discount and see if he can draft
representations for you.
#Post#: 6172--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bexley PCN - Box Junction. Last day to pay reduced charge
DIR By: mrmustard
Date: September 26, 2023, 5:46 pm
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For free help please email the complete Pcn, unredacted, to
mrmustard@zoho.com
#Post#: 6327--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bexley PCN - Box Junction. Last day to pay reduced charge
DIR By: S23
Date: September 28, 2023, 7:24 pm
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Big thank you to all replies. I have emailed MrMustard for
further support
#Post#: 15702--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bexley PCN - Box Junction. Last day to pay reduced charge
DIR By: mrmustard
Date: February 15, 2024, 10:38 am
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There was a delay whilst the adjudicator considered the
arguments I raised at the hearing on 4 January but the decision
is now out.
2230525729
The Appellant did not attend the hearing but was represented by
Mr Dishman who made submissions based on his skeleton argument.
I am unable to accept his submission that on the fact this is a
case where the principle of de minimis (i.e. legal
insignificance) should be applied. I do not consider that either
in terms of time or distance the amount and period of stopping
was small as to amount to effectively nothing at all.
Mr Dishman submits that the PCN is non-compliant. There is an
inherent difficulty in the way the legislation is drafted which
requires the Council to ste that if the PCN is not paid before
the end of the period of 28 days beginning with Date of the
Notice an increased charge may be payable; but it is also
provided that the Council may disregard ay representations
received after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with
the date on which the penalty charge notice in question was
served. This crates a period of limbo during which the Council
can in theory increase the charge but is still required to
consider representations. It seems to me there is no form of
words which can adequately reconcile this inconsistency but it
does seem to me that whatever form of words is used should not
at any point inform the motorist of something that is positively
incorrect. It is not correct to tell motorists that they have 28
days from the date of the notice to make representations when in
fact that have 28 days from the date of service’ nor in my view
can the PCN be said to be substantially compliant if it gives
incorrect and inconsistent information on that particular
important point.
I therefore agree with Mr Dishman that this PCN with the
requirements of s4 of the Act . It follows that no penalty may
be demanded on the basis of it.
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