DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 67775--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: April 19, 2025, 1:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [quote author=stamfordman link=topic=5948.msg67753#msg67753
date=1745081668]
> Why they need to use the sign for a lunchtime game (as today)
as a match day though is a bit daft as it was over by 14:30.
>
--- End Quote ---
So there might be an argument that the restriction was
ultra-vires, similarly to the box junction case in Ricardo
Bowden v London Borough of Newham (2240295228, 2 January 2025)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X3SEOqKaiXoh1m6I-E0jMATjztIEyOVG/view.
[member=2249]stamfordman[/member] what evidence is there about
the end time of the relevant event?
And crucially, was the end time something that was known in
advance?
[/quote]
The kick-off for the 1 April game when the OP parked was 19:45.
I'm just pointing out that flipping it to the match day plate
makes little sense for a 12:30 kick-off if all it does is add 2
hours after the usual 18:30 end time.
There could be another event though on the same day (eg in
Finsbury Park).
As I said though the advantage of this signage is you don't need
to know anything about events and just obey the sign.
#Post#: 67799--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: April 19, 2025, 4:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes there are entry signs with event days but as we know these
control only single yellows.
If you park in the bay with that parking sign I do think the
only conclusion you can make is it that those times are
operational on that day. The only alternative IMO is that there
are no restrictions on non-event days, which is a point that
could be tested.
But it could be clearer and also say 'Event day today'.
HTML https://imgur.kageurufu.net/BzoyLQC.png
#Post#: 67806--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: April 19, 2025, 6:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Within the controlled times Mon-Sat, the Pay-by-Phone times are
identical for normal and event days being 10am to 5pm
#Post#: 67840--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 20, 2025, 7:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
A few nonsense posts have now vanished. We all need to remember
that it's not up to any of us to decide the rights and wrongs,
what we have to bear in mind is, if the adjudicator asks the
appellant "what's wrong with this sign ?"
HTML https://imgur.kageurufu.net/vzG0yjB.png
there needs to be a compelling answer, not one that they can
deal with by saying "I disagree and find as a fact that the
contravention occurred".
Simply saying that it was impossible to know whether the sign
applied or not is not going to cut it. Please let's be realistic
and remember that we need to give legal advise on arguable
points and on the prospects of success of those arguments, this
is not a philosophical debate about the rights and wrongs of
what the council has done. Further posts that ignore this will
be removed without further warning.
Going back to the previous issue, clearly for the 1st April the
council could say that the extended hours means people wouldn't
turn up and occupy all the bays before kick-off, so the
ultra-vires argument doesn't work either.
In these circumstances the best option might be the strategy of
last resort
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/ealing-cumberland-road-w7-code-53j-failing-to-comply-with-a-restriction-on-vehic/msg56444/#msg56444,<br
/>though I have come up with a few variations of it they all
depend on the OP having some sort of mitigating evidence for the
council to (fail to) look at.
#Post#: 67864--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: elucidate
Date: April 20, 2025, 5:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you all for your ongoing discussion. In particular thank
you [member=2249]stamfordman[/member] for going through the
trouble of going to the location to take a photo.
I'm honestly at a loss for how I got it so badly wrong, I have
good vision and don't normally make these kinds of mistakes.
Is me saying the sign hadn't been flipped over a poor defence?
Would there be any onus on the authority to prove it had been
done? The rejection letter says they do it "days before" an
event, therefore any assertion that the sign wasn't flipped to
match mode cannot be correct.
... surely that can't be true, because, if what they're saying
is indeed the case, the implication is that, on the days leading
up to an event, people are able to park without any restrictions
whatsoever?
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> In these circumstances the best option might be the strategy
of last resort
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/ealing-cumberland-road-w7-code-53j-failing-to-comply-with-a-restriction-on-vehic/msg56444/#msg56444,<br
/>though I have come up with a few variations of it they all
depend on the OP having some sort of mitigating evidence for the
council to (fail to) look at.
>
--- End Quote ---
The only thing I can come up with is just a screenshot of GSV
which I saw before I set off. Or proof of purchase at the
restaurant. They probably won't bother to look at either of
those things.
If I wait for the NtO, appeal and then they reject it, will they
re-offer the discounted rate?
#Post#: 67865--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 20, 2025, 5:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: elucidate link ---
>
> Is me saying the sign hadn't been flipped over a poor defence?
>
--- End Quote ---
It's arguable, as the quality of the photo from the CEO is so
bad, an adjudicator might decide that he can't be sure it had
been flipped. But by your own admission, you don't really recall
if it was flipped or not.
--- Quote from: elucidate link ---
>
> ... surely that can't be true, because, if what they're saying
is indeed the case, the implication is that, on the days leading
up to an event, people are able to park without any restrictions
whatsoever?
>
--- End Quote ---
No, if that's what they're saying the implication is that
they're imposing event day restrictions on non-event days.
--- Quote from: elucidate link ---
>
> The only thing I can come up with is just a screenshot of GSV
which I saw before I set off. Or proof of purchase at the
restaurant. They probably won't bother to look at either of
those things.
>
--- End Quote ---
OK so that's something.
--- Quote from: elucidate link ---
>
> If I wait for the NtO, appeal and then they reject it, will
they re-offer the discounted rate?
>
--- End Quote ---
You can't appeal an NTO, you can only make a formal
representation against it. They would normally reoffer the
discount but you can take it as read that they will reject. It's
only when you appeal to the tribunal that you get a fair
hearing.
#Post#: 83903--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: elucidate
Date: August 3, 2025, 11:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Good afternoon everyone,
Some linked updates:
- My formal representation
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VR24bRwkj7PiA-o2deTKLLgxa_mqOOUP/view?usp=drive_link
- Their rejection of my formal representation
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zWnjDUXzTiQ3KPBylL9pCAVkuz4jChBR/view?usp=sharing
In order to try and leverage the Strategy of Last Resort, I did
provide them with a Bitly link as mitigating evidence, and my
Bitly analytics clearly show no-one ever clicked on it.
[member=1]cp8759[/member] Can you please advise on how to
proceed on this basis?
[EDIT: Broken links fixed]
#Post#: 83912--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 3, 2025, 12:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
OP, pl read what you've posted.
Their NOR was sent on 7 July. Their letter dated 29 July advises
you and includes a copy.
Assuming you didn't receive the original NOR, you could simply
ignore the copy and wait for the process to unfold i.e. Charge
Certificate, Order for Recovery, revocation order, authority
referral to adjudicator and your appeal.
Or you could register an appeal now - and add procedural
impropriety to what you had in your reps- and carry on. This
would be quicker and you would be in control.
With a NOR dated 7 July the mandated (as opposed to the period
stated in the NOR) 28 days to appeal ends on TUESDAY 5 AUGUST.
WaIt for other views.
...but don't wait too long.
#Post#: 83917--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: elucidate
Date: August 3, 2025, 12:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> OP, pl read what you've posted.
>
> Their NOR was sent on 7 July. Their letter dated 29 July
advises you and includes a copy.
>
> Assuming you didn't receive the original NOR, you could simply
ignore the copy and wait for the process to unfold i.e. Charge
Certificate, Order for Recovery, revocation order, authority
referral to adjudicator and your appeal.
>
> Or you could register an appeal now - and add procedural
impropriety to what you had in your reps- and carry on. This
would be quicker and you would be in control.
>
> With a NOR dated 7 July the mandated (as opposed to the period
stated in the NOR) 28 days to appeal ends on TUESDAY 5 AUGUST.
>
> WaIt for other views.
> ...but don't wait too long.
>
--- End Quote ---
I received the original NOR but I misplaced it hence I asked
them to send me another one, with the intention to abide by the
given timeline, hence I am getting everything in place for me to
file a case with the adjudicator by midnight tonight. Is today
not the last day, then?
Here
HTML https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yLXbbtUi7nMmSEN6oJQPd_Bq3Dto6QDs/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=117727268490317838063&rtpof=true&sd=true<br
/>is the draft (if you want to skip the points I have previously
submitted to the Council then you can start reading from halfway
down the second page).
And here
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/16sLCNZfuD7Kn7lhsE0n33CXkEPlQhtwg/view?usp=sharing<br
/>are the URL analytics.
Link to full folder of docs -->
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/16sLCNZfuD7Kn7lhsE0n33CXkEPlQhtwg/view?usp=sharing
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/16sLCNZfuD7Kn7lhsE0n33CXkEPlQhtwg/view?usp=sharing
#Post#: 83921--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: August 3, 2025, 1:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
There's no discount now so may as well appeal.
It could be worth getting the traffic order. The case below
suggests those CPZ entry signs could be wrong with all the dates
but the case is for Newham not Haringey.
-------------
Case reference
Appellant
Authority
VRM
PCN Details
PCN
Contravention date
Contravention time
Contravention location
Penalty amount
Contravention
Referral date
Decision Date
Adjudicator
Appeal decision
Direction
Owner.
Reasons
The Appellant’s case is essentially that there was no signage in
the immediate vicinity to inform her that the day in w question
was an event day. This may be so. However the Council clearly
relies on this information being given on Controlled Zone
signage which the motorist must pass in order to reach the
eventual parking place – a standard form of stadium signage.
In the present case, however, although plans have been provided
together with photographs of the signs relied on, these are of
very poor quality and do not clearly show either the location of
the signs or the location where the vehicle parked. I am not
satisfied this evidence is sufficient to prove what is needed to
be proved, namely that the Appellant could not have reached her
parking place without passing such a sign.
I would also add that the Secretary of State’s authorisation for
the sign allows the lower panel to be varied to the “date of the
next event” – not the date of the next event and the event
following that.
The Appeal must therefore be allowed
*****************************************************
Page 4 of 5
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page