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#Post#: 67461--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 16, 2025, 4:07 pm
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Each panel is to be read in isolation, and I don't think it's
arguable that the sign is not capable of being understood.
#Post#: 67472--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: elucidate
Date: April 16, 2025, 5:10 pm
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> I'm loath to act before the OP has bothered to answer.
>
--- End Quote ---
At the best of times it's a one-hour round trip for me to go to
the sign and come home again, and things are slightly more
complicated what with me needing to go on a match or event day.
I'm not saying I refuse to do it but there's obviously nothing I
can do until I get the opportunity.
#Post#: 67473--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 16, 2025, 5:17 pm
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[member=1498]elucidate[/member] my understanding is that
[member=2249]stamfordman[/member] isn't a million miles away and
if you ask nicely he might be able to go and get a photo of the
sign in the next few days.
#Post#: 67491--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: April 17, 2025, 3:28 am
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How can and why should the top panel be construed as having
effect on the day in question when the use of the same permitted
parking expression in the middle or lowest panel does not.
As I posted, IMO we're in danger of reading what we want to see.
OP, by way of example see diagram 13.48 on page 170 of the
Traffic Signs Manual and Schedule 18 of the Traffic Signs etc.
Regs:
HTML https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/18/made
IMO, the permitted parking expression is meaningless on its own,
it must be brought into effect by other sign(s) stating that
today is a 'match etc. day'.
#Post#: 67527--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 17, 2025, 6:17 am
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> How can why should the top panel be construed as having effect
on the day in question when the use of the same permitted
parking expression in the middle or lowest panel does not.
>
--- End Quote ---
Even if you ignore the top panel, the lower panels are not
unclear or ambiguous and in any event there's substantial
compliance. Elucidate's case isn't that the sign was confusing
or unclear, but simply that he misread the end time of the
restrictions.
#Post#: 67531--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: Grant Urismo
Date: April 17, 2025, 7:00 am
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The Council must communicate a restriction in a way that a
diligent motorist has a fighting chance of understanding. The
Council must do this with compliant signage, it cannot invent a
secret code based on the presence of hinges in signs and expect
this to be understood.
I can't see why the bottom panel would be of any relevance, as
the Tuesday in question was neither a Sunday nor a Bank Holiday.
The top panel refers to "match and event days", and I'm in
agreement with HCA that it's meaningless. How is a motorist
supposed to determine if there is both a "match" and an "event"
on any given day (the Council may well have intended 'match or
event', but they wrote "match and event", so hold them to it)?
I propose a variant on the strategy of last resort, a highly
pedantic appeal that demands the council provide evidence all
sorts of things that they won't bother doing, with a note that
they will be held to strict proof of them all at the tribunal
stage.
Admit nothing, use their bad photo against them: I can't read
the restriction in your photo, what does it say (in full, all
sides)? is it variable? what does the other side say? What proof
do you have of the state of the sign when I parked? Do you only
flip on match days? At midnight exactly? What about event days?
What's your proof that it was a match day? How was I supposed to
know that? What's your definition of an match day? How was I
supposed to know that? What's your proof that your definition of
what match day is was available to me at the time I parked?
etc. etc.
#Post#: 67636--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 18, 2025, 8:05 am
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Aside from the fact that it's out of focus, can someone please
explain to me what is unclear or ambiguous about the middle
panel?
HTML https://imgur.kageurufu.net/tosE1HF.png
Because that's the only one that is relevant, and when an
adjudicator asks what's wrong with it I don't think it's going
to matter what the other panels say.
#Post#: 67639--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: April 18, 2025, 8:20 am
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+1
Also I don't think the P&D times differ between event and
non-event days. The sign has always seemed clear enough to me,
but we do see rather a lot of cases where OPs just haven't read
the full sign, usually because they're in a hurry. Another
recent case saw the OP totally ignore the yellow background "No
Waiting" sign at the top of the pole which had the times parking
was barred.
Act in haste, repent at leisure !
#Post#: 67753--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: April 19, 2025, 11:54 am
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Can't fault the sign as at time of PCN it was indeed a 12r
contravention resident bay only and it tells out that it is a
match/event day.
Why they need to use the sign for a lunchtime game (as today) as
a match day though is a bit daft as it was over by 14:30.
HTML https://imgur.kageurufu.net/36PCv6M.jpeg
#Post#: 67770--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without
P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 19, 2025, 12:39 pm
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--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> Why they need to use the sign for a lunchtime game (as today)
as a match day though is a bit daft as it was over by 14:30.
>
--- End Quote ---
So there might be an argument that the restriction was
ultra-vires, similarly to the box junction case in Ricardo
Bowden v London Borough of Newham (2240295228, 2 January 2025)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X3SEOqKaiXoh1m6I-E0jMATjztIEyOVG/view.
[member=2249]stamfordman[/member] what evidence is there about
the end time of the relevant event?
And crucially, was the end time something that was known in
advance?
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