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#Post#: 65797--------------------------------------------------
Haringey 52 M Failing to comply with prohibition on motor
vehicles, Boundary Road junction with Crawley Road X3B
DIR By: JusticeSeeker
Date: April 5, 2025, 1:30 pm
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My mum received this ticket on 25th Feb relating to date of
alleged contravention 16th Feb.
My husband borrowed her car for first time, had insurance bought
for occasion, intending to drive to Norwich. Unfortunately he
didn't get far before being issued with a fine, just metres from
my mum's house. He found the sign unclear. My mum's car (the one
he was driving) has a permit for Boundary Road, from which he
was collecting the car. He did see a no entry sign but it also
had a sign saying "Except permit holders" so hepresumed this
didn't apply to him since he was exiting the road and the car
had a permit on Boundary Road. The sign is double sided so it
applies both ways for context. Google maps unfortunately sent
him this way. He is unfamiliar with the LTN scheme and the local
area so did not know there was another way out. In fact it was
his first day ever driving in England since he is an Italian
National. I think mum tried to explain it to him but he was
still confused.
The location is here:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/3M2yC53PsHeJshMi8<br
/>. He was coming from Boundary Road and then turned left into
Crawley Road. So, the bike shed was on the side he was coming
from obscuring one of the signs / planters.
I think there may be a case here that this sign is unclear for
permit holders of cars on either Crawley or Boundary? Otherwise,
it would just be mitigation, which we expect the council to
refuse, or we go to Tribunal and perhaps catch them on a
procedural impropriety.
He submitted representations on my mum's behalf and they final
got back to us on 3rd April, arrived yesterday, 4th April, to
say that mum has to submit representations because she was the
car owner and they won't accept his. My mum has have been given
a further 14 days to do so. At this point it just says to write
to them. There is an address at the top of the letter but we are
not explicitly directed there.
I can't find a copy of our original representations because we
forgot to tick the box 'email me a copy' - I had already hit
submit. So it seems to be lost in the ether but we said
something along the lines of what we said above about the signs
being unclear and him being a non local driving for the first
time in England so unfamiliar with LTNs in this area. We also
said it was double sided so there didn't seem to be another way
out.
Previously, there was an option to submit representations on the
Haringey website. We found this very confusing.
When you go to the link in the letter of the original PCN
(
HTML https://www.haringey.gov.uk/parking)
you are overwhelmed with
options. One of them does say:
Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) – parking and traffic
Pay a parking or traffic PCN, view evidence, make a challenge,
appeal a decision, lost PCNs, unpaid PCNs, vulnerable residents
and contact us about a PCN.
After you submit your PCN number and reg info it takes you to
this screen
HTML https://haringey.tarantoportal.com/PCNs/PCN/MainDisplay
where
there is a clear read box saying 'Pay PCN' but not much else. If
you then navigate to the "Contact Us" tab
(
HTML https://haringey.tarantoportal.com/PCNs/PCN/MakeRepresentationAddInfo)<br
/>there is a box entitled 'Your Notes'. Above it are the
instructions:
Please use the box below to provide information you would like
the Council to consider in relation to this PCN or further
information if you have already made a challenge or
representation. You must include your name, postal address with
postcode and e-mail address, or the Council will not be able to
respond to your correspondence. You can upload supporting
documents instead of, or together with more information, but the
document(s) must also include your name, postal address with
postcode and e-mail address, if you have not typed this into the
box below.
Many would not think of navigating to this page. I would presume
'Contact Us' means reach out for help but not submit a
representation. There are no grounds of appeal stated.
At this point, it is unclear if we can still use this box or if
we must write.
I have seen other similar PCNs challenged successfully because
the grounds of appeal aren't clearly listed on the website. This
appears to still the case. Also, it is unclear if this is indeed
the correct place to make a representation. I would expect a
clear box labelled 'make a representation'. It just says
'further information you would like the council to consider'. In
the latest letter, they have not stated any grounds of appeal at
all and the only option appears to be to write to them.
It seems that the original PCN is valid as in there are no
procedural improprieties with the dates or the wording (I
checked your spreadsheet) apart from this issue on the website,
which remains confusing as to where you submit and there is no
guidance given / grounds of appeal.
The council already provided a video of him turning left past
the signs, which we don't dispute.
Here is a link with the images, sorry they are poor I don't have
the hard copies my mum does and she isn't the most techy:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/haringey-letters-c0ujl9o
I can try to get better copies but you should be able to make
out the content.
Your help would be much appreciated regarding appealing this
fine. We have really about a week now because of postage time
and given the date on this letter being 2 days ago now.
Hopefully if they send a Notice of Rejection they will at least
re-offer the discounted rate of £65.
Unfortunately he got another fine that day from TFL which we
have just submitted our challenge for because the Notice of
Rejection doesn't clearly state the amount owed and when. Thank
you for providing your helpful spreadsheet from which we were
able to make this argument and reference other cases. I have put
myself down as the representative as we were so time limited
(they sent it REALLY late) it wouldn't have been feasible to ask
someone here. Is it too late to change this to one of you?
Thank you.
PS. I have just seen that the wording of the original PCN may be
deemed incorrect because it states that if you don't pay within
28 days of service a Charge Certificate will be issued, without
giving the option to make representations instead. Is that
right? My gosh they are all making a hash of these PCNS! Long
may it continue!
PSS. If I have understood correctly you might want to adjust the
wording of the PCN flaw for Haringey in your spreadsheet because
I initially incorrectly assumed it didn't apply to me. You say:
Charge certificate if PCN not paid after 28 days from date of
notice
But, they have said 'service' correctly in the appellant's
letter (and ours). The issue now is that they have not mentioned
the right of making representations to stop the Charge
Certificate. Rather they just say PAY OR ELSE.
#Post#: 65825--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey 52 M Failing to comply with prohibition on motor
vehicles, Boundary Road junction with Crawley Road X3B
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: April 6, 2025, 3:38 am
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HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/haringey-52(m)-pcn-nor-help-(downhills-park-rd-n17)/msg54378/#msg54378
And this:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/haringey-52(m)-pcn-nor-help-(downhills-park-rd-n17)/msg54378/#msg54378
We have won cases re the contact page with no grounds.
#Post#: 65840--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey 52 M Failing to comply with prohibition on motor
vehicles, Boundary Road junction with Crawley Road X3B
DIR By: JusticeSeeker
Date: April 6, 2025, 7:42 am
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Hi thanks for replying
but the two links are the same. Should I get mum to respond with
the arguments about PCN flaws directly to the council now? Do we
need to write to them or can we post on their website again?
Should we bother with mitigation eg. Sign being unclear new to
area? Note that this is just the initial representations stage
to the authority we havent received a Notice of Rejection yet.
Thanks.
#Post#: 114604--------------------------------------------------
Re: Haringey 52 M Failing to comply with prohibition on motor
vehicles, Boundary Road junction with Crawley Road X3B
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: March 27, 2026, 8:43 am
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I am pleased to announce that the PCN will be cancelled and the
appellant reimbursed. Well done Haringey. ;D
Penultimate case here:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/has-the-collateral-challenge-met-its-cul-de-sac/msg114594/#msg114594
Similarly, the last one too.
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