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#Post#: 64792--------------------------------------------------
Due care, NDORS and police misconduct
DIR By: TactiMgr
Date: March 29, 2025, 1:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
Bit longwinded and I'm hoping you can help but here goes.
I was stopped in December (I say stopped this was a re-enforced
stop after I had been followed for around 20/25 miles).
I was immediately ordered out of the vehicle and placed in
handcuffs and "assisted" in to the back of a traffic car.
I should say that the vehicle I was driving is a company car,
has no markers that I'm aware of and the reason for the stop was
"the manner of my driving".
I received a TOR for "driving without due care and attention"
and the made a point of saying they don't normally have a say in
how the matters are dealt with.
I received an COFP a few days later which only gave me the
option of points and a fine which would be hugely impactive to
me, work and volunteering. I queried this with the central
ticket office and they advised the "officer in the case had
advised them the matter wasn't suitable for a driver retaining
course" which is in stark contrast to what they had said (on
body worn video) during the stop.
The COFP was placed on hold while a complaint was dealt with but
complaints service has been awful, first response was around 300
words all in and made no effort to address the unlawfulness of
the force used or the integrity issue when raised formally they
stuck with their original conclusion complaint is currently
under review by the review body not hopeful.
At the same time I did a subject access request for all footage
of me and my vehicle and sole limited body worn was provided and
the information governance team simply stated "there was no in
vehicle footage" which would be against force policy and the
body worn clearly shows the screens in the car with the in
vehicle feeds. To be clear they didn't rely on an exemption to
the data protection act just said there was no footage to
disclose.
My queries are:
- Driver retraining courses for non speeding offences are they
are thing PSD seem to think driving without due care isn't an
offence that would be eligible for a course but would be good to
know for sure?
- I think the COFP was only on hold till the end of March with
the next working day being April if I email now to extend will
this matter?
- What are my options? If the force are denying the existence of
footage how can they use it to prosecute the aledged offence?
Would a magistrate care if footage the force exhibited footage
they had stated didn't exist?
- In a similar vain would they be interested in the unlawful use
of force/lying by the oic?
Sorry for long winded one and thanks in advance.
#Post#: 64829--------------------------------------------------
Re: Due care, NDORS and police misconduct
DIR By: The Slithy Tove
Date: March 30, 2025, 2:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The offer of a course is entirely at the discretion of the
police. If they don't offer one, tough luck. There is no way to
"appeal" against it. The fixed penalty is the best you'll get.
If you really think you are not guilty of the offence, then go
ahead take it to court. It could get expensive. Unless you
already have a rack of points on your licence, would these 3
make such a difference? I would suggest that for them to carry
out the kind of stop you described meant that your driving was
not exemplary. What do you think you did to provoke that
reaction?
As for the complaint and the allegations you make against the
police, I can't comment.
#Post#: 64851--------------------------------------------------
Re: Due care, NDORS and police misconduct
DIR By: tonys
Date: March 30, 2025, 5:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TactiMgr link ---
> If the force are denying the existence of footage how can they
use it to prosecute the aledged offence? Would a magistrate care
if footage the force exhibited footage they had stated didn't
exist?
--- End Quote ---
I don't think they should use evidence that's not been
disclosed. But they don't need video anyway, the evidence can be
statements from the police officers.
#Post#: 64859--------------------------------------------------
Re: Due care, NDORS and police misconduct
DIR By: 666
Date: March 30, 2025, 6:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: tonys link ---
>
> [quote author=TactiMgr link=topic=5731.msg64792#msg64792
date=1743274391]If the force are denying the existence of
footage how can they use it to prosecute the aledged offence?
Would a magistrate care if footage the force exhibited footage
they had stated didn't exist?
--- End Quote ---
I don't think they should use evidence that's not been
disclosed. But they don't need video anyway, the evidence can be
statements from the police officers.
[/quote]
There is no obligation on them to disclose anything at this
stage.
#Post#: 64872--------------------------------------------------
Re: Due care, NDORS and police misconduct
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: March 30, 2025, 8:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If you choose to defend the charge in court you will be served
with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you.
This may include some video footage, it may not. As above, the
likelihood is that it will consist of statements from the
officers involved.
If you believe there is footage that will either assist your
case or undermine theirs, you must ask the court to order its
disclosure. If you are only relying on that footage to argue
that you were given the impression that you would be offered a
course, your request is likely to fall on deaf ears. As above,
whether to offer a course or not is entirely within the gift of
the police. You have no right to be offered one and no right to
appeal against the decision if you are not. The court will not
be interested in how that decision was reached.
So to answer your questions:
--- Quote ---
> - Driver retraining courses for non speeding offences are they
are thing PSD seem to think driving without due care isn't an
offence that would be eligible for a course but would be good to
know for sure?
--- End Quote ---
Yes, courses are offered for careless driving offences. Whether
or not to offer one rests entirely with the police.
--- Quote ---
> - I think the COFP was only on hold till the end of March with
the next working day being April if I email now to extend will
this matter?
--- End Quote ---
You must ask the police whether or not they will extend the FP
offer. They might ask (as do I) for what purpose should they do
that? You raised the issue of not being offered a course and it
seems they have addressed it. You also need to be aware that
most forces will not keep a course offer open for much beyond
three months from the date of the offence.
--- Quote ---
> - What are my options? If the force are denying the existence
of footage how can they use it to prosecute the aledged offence?
Would a magistrate care if footage the force exhibited footage
they had stated didn't exist?
>
--- End Quote ---
Your options seem to be to either accept the FP offer or face
prosecution in court. If you choose the latter you will then see
what evidence the police will rely on. It will be for the court
to decide whether they are sure you committed the offence based
on that evidence.
--- Quote ---
> - In a similar vain would they be interested in the unlawful
use of force/lying by the oic?
--- End Quote ---
Almost certainly not.
#Post#: 64892--------------------------------------------------
Re: Due care, NDORS and police misconduct
DIR By: TactiMgr
Date: March 30, 2025, 2:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: The Slithy Tove link ---
>
> The offer of a course is entirely at the discretion of the
police. If they don't offer one, tough luck. There is no way to
"appeal" against it. The fixed penalty is the best you'll get.
If you really think you are not guilty of the offence, then go
ahead take it to court. It could get expensive. Unless you
already have a rack of points on your licence, would these 3
make such a difference? I would suggest that for them to carry
out the kind of stop you described meant that your driving was
not exemplary. What do you think you did to provoke that
reaction?
>
> As for the complaint and the allegations you make against the
police, I can't comment.
>
--- End Quote ---
I totally get that it's "discretionary" but it's the lack of
integrity that's my issue. Stating they as the oic have no say
and then them not only having a say but deciding the outcome
just doesn't sit right.
Unfortunately 3 points is a deal breaker for some of my long
standing volunteering roles and impacts my current employment
slightly and also other roles more hard to explain without
giving too much away.
As for the stop/my driving I'm not going to suggest my driving
was impeccable but worst part was me flashing someone lane
hogging in lane 3 of an empty 3 lane dual carriage way.
The officer tried to berate me around various aspects including
suggesting at one point I was doing 90+! But dispite following
me for 20/25 miles in good conditions in a double crewed traffic
car had no evidential speed readings or at least failed to
report me for this. Regularless chose to undertake a risky
pursuit tactic in crowded city centre rather than initiate a
stop in the 30/40 minutes they were behind me.
In my view, that, the ordering me to exit my vehicle and the
unlawful use of force highlights some poor decision making.
#Post#: 64894--------------------------------------------------
Re: Due care, NDORS and police misconduct
DIR By: TactiMgr
Date: March 30, 2025, 2:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: tonys link ---
>
> [quote author=TactiMgr link=topic=5731.msg64792#msg64792
date=1743274391]If the force are denying the existence of
footage how can they use it to prosecute the aledged offence?
Would a magistrate care if footage the force exhibited footage
they had stated didn't exist?
--- End Quote ---
I don't think they should use evidence that's not been
disclosed. But they don't need video anyway, the evidence can be
statements from the police officers.
[/quote]
Totally get that video isn't required, there will at least be
body worn (or should be as per force policy but then so should
there be in vehicle video) the point I'm getting at is integrity
could be called in to question based on the pic's statements
mentioned above.
Also no disclosure requested as part of a court case just a
subject access request
#Post#: 64895--------------------------------------------------
Re: Due care, NDORS and police misconduct
DIR By: TactiMgr
Date: March 30, 2025, 2:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> If you choose to defend the charge in court you will be served
with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you.
This may include some video footage, it may not. As above, the
likelihood is that it will consist of statements from the
officers involved.
>
> If you believe there is footage that will either assist your
case or undermine theirs, you must ask the court to order its
disclosure. If you are only relying on that footage to argue
that you were given the impression that you would be offered a
course, your request is likely to fall on deaf ears. As above,
whether to offer a course or not is entirely within the gift of
the police. You have no right to be offered one and no right to
appeal against the decision if you are not. The court will not
be interested in how that decision was reached.
>
> So to answer your questions:
>
> [quote]- Driver retraining courses for non speeding offences
are they are thing PSD seem to think driving without due care
isn't an offence that would be eligible for a course but would
be good to know for sure?
--- End Quote ---
Yes, courses are offered for careless driving offences. Whether
or not to offer one rests entirely with the police.
--- Quote ---
> - I think the COFP was only on hold till the end of March with
the next working day being April if I email now to extend will
this matter?
--- End Quote ---
You must ask the police whether or not they will extend the FP
offer. They might ask (as do I) for what purpose should they do
that? You raised the issue of not being offered a course and it
seems they have addressed it. You also need to be aware that
most forces will not keep a course offer open for much beyond
three months from the date of the offence.
--- Quote ---
> - What are my options? If the force are denying the existence
of footage how can they use it to prosecute the aledged offence?
Would a magistrate care if footage the force exhibited footage
they had stated didn't exist?
>
--- End Quote ---
Your options seem to be to either accept the FP offer or face
prosecution in court. If you choose the latter you will then see
what evidence the police will rely on. It will be for the court
to decide whether they are sure you committed the offence based
on that evidence.
--- Quote ---
> - In a similar vain would they be interested in the unlawful
use of force/lying by the oic?
--- End Quote ---
Almost certainly not.
[/quote]
Thank you for your detailed response. I guess my view is how
good a witness do they make if they've lied on bwv (i have this)
and have used unlawful force I get that it's not material to the
traffic offence completely but it does suggest some foul play.
I would have been quite content had A)the officer not said
anything about how much of say he did or didn't have in the
matter B) hadn't assaulted me for a routine traffic stop or C)
the forces data protection team used an exemption to refuse
disclosure of the footage rather than stating there isn't any.
I've emailed the central ticket office as the complaint is with
OPCC and may end up with the IOPC due to some article 3 HRA
concerns.
Re the course offer though the national policy does seem to
state that a NDOR course is the preferred disposal for low level
offences from the guidance:
"▪ Being issued in situations that are observed by police
officers where there are
no victims, no collisions and no public complaint. (Tick)
▪ it is intended that fixed penalty situations will in
most
scenarios be converted to a period of driver training.
▪ That no previous course has been offered/attended
(within three years) (tick)"
Also goes on to further define/give guidelines on suitability :
Situations of lower level aggressive and inconsiderate driving
where other drivers are not unduly affected,
such as driving too close to the vehicle in front, failing to
give way at a junction
(no evasive action by another driver) overtaking and forcing
into a queue of
traffic, wrong lane at a roundabout, ignoring a road closed sign
and forcing in to
an orderly queue, lane discipline such as remaining in lane two
or three when
lane one is empty and there is no other vehicle to overtake,
inappropriate speed,
wheel spins, hand brake turns as well as other similar careless
driving
manoeuvres."
Just at a loss that dispite my driving fitting in to both the
above the officer is being unreasonably harsh.
#Post#: 64897--------------------------------------------------
Re: Due care, NDORS and police misconduct
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: March 30, 2025, 3:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If your driving fell below the standard of a competent and
careful driver, you are guilty. If not, you are not.
You have indicated some potentially serious issues and have
deliberately avoided troubling us with any relevant details. You
have sought to dispute the advice given based on what
information you have provided, on the basis that it doesn't sit
right with you.
If you don't want to disclose the relevant details, that's up to
you, but as it stands, this thread is going nowhere (or possibly
into the circular file).
#Post#: 64902--------------------------------------------------
Re: Due care, NDORS and police misconduct
DIR By: TactiMgr
Date: March 30, 2025, 4:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: andy_foster link ---
>
> If your driving fell below the standard of a competent and
careful driver, you are guilty. If not, you are not.
>
> You have indicated some potentially serious issues and have
deliberately avoided troubling us with any relevant details. You
have sought to dispute the advice given based on what
information you have provided, on the basis that it doesn't sit
right with you.
>
> If you don't want to disclose the relevant details, that's up
to you, but as it stands, this thread is going nowhere (or
possibly into the circular file).
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't think I've denied the offence at any point, I'm not
trying to get away without taking any responsibility for the the
standard of my driving and for the record I made that very clear
in my complaint.
The issue I have is the disposal not being in line with the
legislation or national guidance and that's before you consider
the misconduct and integrity issues.
I've stated relevant details I I've said the key element will
have been flashing a lane hogger does that excuse my behaviour?
Absolutely not but it's context. Happy to provide more "relevant
details" but not sure what else I could provide? Surely if my
driving had been that bad they wouldn't have waited for me to
drive in to a busy city centre after being behind me for 40
minutes? Also busy city centre with lots of pedestrians and
20mph limits or an empty primary route which is safer?
Also forgive me for being aggrieved for being assaulted, forced
to stop, ordered out of my car and lied too as well as receiving
one of the worst complaint experiences imaginable.
🤷🏻‍♂️
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