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#Post#: 64217--------------------------------------------------
“Alliance Parking PCN – Exceeded time limit – Harlyn Bay,
Cornwall
DIR By: Purbeckfossil
Date: March 26, 2025, 8:48 am
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The registered keeper received a PCN for a duration of stay of
3hr 12min 40sec on 13/06/2023. Yes, about 18 months ago!!! The
registered keeper was not driving the car and submitted a
response that they were under no compunction to tell Alliance
Parking who the driver was. Alliance then acknowledged that this
was correct.
No further correspondence was received from Alliance until the
registered keeper received a final demand dated 19 March 2025
for £100 with a payment date of 02/04/2025.
As I understand the situation, PCNs can be active for six years
which seems excessive, but whatever......
Due to the time lag, the only documentation that exists is a
copy of the original PCN. On attempting to access the Alliance
website, there is this message "We are currently updating our
website; which we hope to go live by Spring 2025." with no
ability to access any details on the reference number given on
the final demand or against the PCN.
The driver of the car remembers paying for 3hrs at the machine
either by phone or cash, not sure which, but thinks cash was
used. The parking ticket is no longer available so the excess
time is 12mins 40secs. I also believe that the driver had
reasonable mitigating circumstances but did not submit anything
to Alliance as they have only just issued the final demand to
the keeper some 18 months later. Alliance have never
acknowledged that a parking ticket was issued.
So, where do we go from here? Pay up, go to court or have
Alliance not followed correct procedure that can be suggested by
a written letter.
Any guidance would be gratefully received.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 64239--------------------------------------------------
Re: “Alliance Parking PCN – Exceeded time limit – Harlyn Bay,
Cornwall
DIR By: b789
Date: March 26, 2025, 10:26 am
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That Notice to Keeper (NtK) is compliant with PoFA, therefore
the Keeper can be liable if the driver is not identified. Unless
someone else can see a PoFA failure, I don't see how the Keeper
cannot be liable.
There is no such thing as a "PCN being 'active" for 6 years". A
PCN is simply an invoice. There is no time limit whatsoever on
an invoice not being valid. They can chase you ad infinitum to
try and collect on it. However, they cannot issue a county court
claim for debt after 6 years have passed since the alleged
contravention date.
It is up to you if you want to fight it. Too late to appeal.
If/when they try to make a claim, you can defend based on lots
of criteria including the signage, whether the operator had a
valid contract flowing from the landowner authorising them to
issue PCNs in their own name, breaches of the IPC Code of
Practice valid at the time and so on. If they issue a claim,
they are likely to use one of several incompetent bulk
litigators who will likely make fatal mistakes in the
Particulars of Claim (PoC) which are always a good defence
point. Most will either discontinue before any hearing or, if
there are fatal mistakes in the PoC, will be struck out.
The choice is yours. However, the PCN you received is, as far as
I can make out, fully compliant with all the requirements of
PoFA.
#Post#: 64240--------------------------------------------------
Re: “Alliance Parking PCN – Exceeded time limit – Harlyn Bay,
Cornwall
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: March 26, 2025, 10:31 am
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--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> Unless someone else can see a PoFA failure, I don't see how
the Keeper cannot be liable.
>
--- End Quote ---
Looks it to me too.
#Post#: 64353--------------------------------------------------
Re: “Alliance Parking PCN – Exceeded time limit – Harlyn Bay,
Cornwall
DIR By: Purbeckfossil
Date: March 27, 2025, 3:15 am
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Thanks for all your input.
So, to summarise
1. I was of the opinion, wrongly it appears, that the keeper is
still responsible for the PCN, even after stating that they were
not driving the vehicle and decline to name the driver at the
time of the alledged offence.
2. Given that the driver had mitigating circumstances, it sounds
as though the Keeper would have been better to inform Alliance
of the driver so the driver could contest the fine with the
mitigating facts?
3. Alliance have followed correct procedure, ---regrettably.
and on a final note:
1. Alliance Parking
- Has received nothing but negative comments on review sites -
deservedly in my opinion.
- The website is currently not available and any documentation
regarding PCN information or documentation submitted by the
Keeper/Driver is unavailable. This severely affects the ability
of the Keeper/Driver to review the case after so long a delay
between PCN & Final Demand.
2. Be aware that ANPR clocks you the second you arrive and the
senond you depart so it is this time log that determines your
stay at the car park - A lot of people haven fallen foul of this
with no apparent lee-way.
3. IMO, 18 months lag between PCN and Final Demand is untenable
and does not allow the Driver to subsequently challenge the PCN.
Looks like I am at least £100 worse off - but I have a story
for the boys in the Pub on Saturday - Thanks Again, unless there
are nay more comments, I have a few days before the demand is
due!
#Post#: 64354--------------------------------------------------
Re: “Alliance Parking PCN – Exceeded time limit – Harlyn Bay,
Cornwall
DIR By: G6PRK
Date: March 27, 2025, 3:47 am
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Your summary of where you find yourself now is somewhat accurate
but I'm not sure how you've figured out you're £100 worse off.
It would likely not have made any difference if you’d named the
driver. You can still defend in court as either driver or
keeper. You haven’t specified what mitigating circumstances
existed but operators typically don’t care. They’re IPC/IAS so
you had at best a 4% chance of success at appeal anyway.
We’re still missing a bunch of facts to determine how much of a
case you would have if this went to court (signage primarily)
but there are likely to be a few angles you can take to fight
this if it goes that far.
Per earlier messages it’s also plausible that it never goes
there or if it does the claim is defective and is struck out
before a hearing.
In terms of your follow up points:
1. Reviews are irrelevant but by all means add one. Website
being useless is irrelevant - You received the NtK and all
relevant information - you chose to ignore it, that’s on you.
2. ANPR point and timing is important. Code of practice dictates
a minimum consideration and grace period. Will be part of your
defence if it goes to court.
3. Your opinion isn’t important regarding the lag. Again you had
the NtK and chose to ignore. You have been very unlucky in
receiving one of the very few NtKs that can transfer liability.
Sorry for bluntness throughout. The team here will absolutely
help you defend if you choose to do so. A parking charge of this
nature is clearly unreasonable in your case, mitigation or
otherwise.
Up to you if you choose to pay, but personally I wouldn’t.
#Post#: 64367--------------------------------------------------
Re: “Alliance Parking PCN – Exceeded time limit – Harlyn Bay,
Cornwall
DIR By: b789
Date: March 27, 2025, 4:47 am
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No one here has suggested you pay the PCN. The odds of this ever
reaching a hearing in a court claim are slim. Even if it did, as
pointed out above, you still have other reasons to defend it.
Is the signage at the location prominent and does it adequately
inform the driver of the charge? Is the signage at the location
capable of forming a contract? Does the operator have a valid
contract flowing from the landowner permitting them to issue
PCNs in their own name? Will the operator actually litigate over
this? If they did litigate, are they likely to screw up the
claim (highly likely)?
It's up to you if you want give in and accept that you are
liable for the charge.. or not.
#Post#: 64660--------------------------------------------------
Re: “Alliance Parking PCN – Exceeded time limit – Harlyn Bay,
Cornwall
DIR By: Purbeckfossil
Date: March 28, 2025, 11:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks again for the responses. Following on from the latest
input from G6PRK & b789:-
1. Not sure on the signage - Keeper & Driver live over 150 miles
away and any signage today would be 18 months after the event. I
have nothing to offer from 2023.
2. The mitigating circumstance is that the driver sprained their
ankle by tripping into a rabbit hole or similar when walking
along the coast from Harlyn Bay which delayed their departure
from the car park by at least 20 mins due to reduced mobility. A
picture of the swollen foot was taken several days after the PCN
arrived that shows a bruised toenail and imflammation of the
ankle joint which lasted for about 20 days.
3. Regarding the comment "Per earlier messages it’s also
plausible that it never goes there or if it does the claim is
defective and is struck out before a hearing."
Are you indicating that the liklihood of the following comment
on their final demand might not be actioned "Please be warned
that, if we do not receive payment in full by 02/04/2025 we will
have no option but to forward your case to our Litigation
Department, which may result in additional charges.
4. My comment about being £100 worse off is based on paying the
fine.
5. You make the point that either the driver or the Keeper can
defend the action in court - Will this be stated on any future
correspondence concerning County Court proceedings?
Finally, the driver is keen to ignore the Demand and would
welcome ongoing assistance from your good selves going forward
but does not wish any burden to fall on the keeper. Best Regards
- Purbeckfossil
#Post#: 64664--------------------------------------------------
Re: “Alliance Parking PCN – Exceeded time limit – Harlyn Bay,
Cornwall
DIR By: b789
Date: March 28, 2025, 12:00 pm
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DO you honestly think that a phot of a swollen ankle taken
several days after the alleged contravention would prove
anything? I mean, I could overstay at a private car park and say
the reason was because of this injury sustained whilst walking
back to the vehicle:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/xUSuutX.jpeg
Let's be realistic... unless you can evidence that the injury
was sustained where you say it was and then it was enough too
delay the departure and also evidence that with some kind of
record, it isn't going to hold any water.
Whilst I am not saying it is not a true account of what
happened, you would have to be able to convince a judge that on
the balance of probability, your version of events is the most
likely.
If this were to go all the way to a hearing in court, then the
charge is initially going to be inflated by the operator by the
addition of a fake £60-£70 debt recovery fee. Then, if a claim
is made, the amount claimed will be £170 + Claim fee £35 + Fixed
solicitor costs £50 + statutory interest a2 8%/annum. So, around
£260.
If they discontinue or the claim is struck out, you owe nothing.
If it makes it all the way to a hearing and you are unsuccessful
the amount awarded is likely to be less than £260 because most
judges do not allow the fake £60-£70 claimed or any statutory
interest, so around £180-£190 in total. If you are successful
and the judge decides that you do not owe a debt, then you pay
nothing and if the claimant behaved unreasonably you can claim
costs too.
You have to decide whether you are prepared to risk that for
what you believe to be an unfair PCN,
#Post#: 64676--------------------------------------------------
Re: “Alliance Parking PCN – Exceeded time limit – Harlyn Bay,
Cornwall
DIR By: G6PRK
Date: March 28, 2025, 1:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Purbeckfossil link ---
>
>
> 5. You make the point that either the driver or the Keeper can
defend the action in court - Will this be stated on any future
correspondence concerning County Court proceedings?
>
> Finally, the driver is keen to ignore the Demand and would
welcome ongoing assistance from your good selves going forward
but does not wish any burden to fall on the keeper. Best Regards
- Purbeckfossil
>
--- End Quote ---
I think b789 has covered all your points, perhaps except this
one which was based on something I said.
It gets quite messy when we (as we generally need to) talk about
the driver and the keeper without being clear on who you/they
are - so this is a tricky one to address to an extent.
If court papers are issued, and thus far correspondence has been
directed at the keeper, so too would the court papers and thus
the keeper would have to respond (and attend a hearing if
necessary).
Hypothetically, if this were a situation where you were the
driver and not the keeper - and given this is one of the very
rare NtKs where the liability actually can be transferred with
PoFA, and that you specifically are aiming to avoid any burden
on the keeper - it might actually be a rare situation where it
is sensible for the keeper to identify the driver if you intend
to fight it.
[member=26]b789[/member] [member=103]DWMB2[/member] would you
agree or am I drunk?
#Post#: 64706--------------------------------------------------
Re: “Alliance Parking PCN – Exceeded time limit – Harlyn Bay,
Cornwall
DIR By: b789
Date: March 28, 2025, 8:34 pm
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I agree. As the NtK is PoFA compliant, it makes no difference
whether it is the driver or the keeper (if they are different
people) that challenges the PCN.
Liability can be transferred at any point up to the issue of a
court claim.
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