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DIR Return to: Speeding and other criminal offences
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#Post#: 63301--------------------------------------------------
Re: Exceeding temporary 50 mph limit on motorway - average speed
camera recorded 59 mph
DIR By: ohmygod
Date: March 19, 2025, 4:49 pm
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--- Quote from: JustLoveCars link ---
>
> Effectively missing 4 signs - the argument that you believed
the NSL was in effect would be a challenge. (There appears to
be other indications such as cones and closed lanes)
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Aren't the other signs or cones irrelevant in this case? They're
not conveying the speed limit information and thats what I'm
being charged with?
--- Quote from: Southpaw82 link ---
>
> Your argument seems to be that if you had been reminded of the
lower limit some 150 yards sooner, your average speed would have
been below 57 mph. Are you sure? In any case, any speed above 50
is speeding, so you would still be guilty.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
I accept I didn't register the speed change at the terminal
signs (it was dark and my attention was not caught by it), but I
did react to the next sign.
The camera is positioned around 210m after the terminal signs.
The repeater is another 290m after the camera.
I would say the speed was being enforced by the camera before
adequate guidance had been given on the speed limit. In terms of
what adequate would look like I would refer to the 350m
recommended of repeater after a terminal sign in the TSM.
#Post#: 63302--------------------------------------------------
Re: Exceeding temporary 50 mph limit on motorway - average speed
camera recorded 59 mph
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: March 19, 2025, 4:55 pm
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--- Quote from: ohmygod link ---
> I would say the speed was being enforced by the camera before
adequate guidance had been given on the speed limit. In terms of
what adequate would look like I would refer to the 350m
recommended of repeater after a terminal sign in the TSM.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well, that’s the argument you need to decide whether to run or
not. I don’t rate your chances but it’s not hopeless and it’s
your choice.
#Post#: 63305--------------------------------------------------
Re: Exceeding temporary 50 mph limit on motorway - average speed
camera recorded 59 mph
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: March 19, 2025, 5:21 pm
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--- Quote ---
> I would say the speed was being enforced by the camera before
adequate guidance had been given on the speed limit.
--- End Quote ---
And I would say the "guidance" (or I'd prefer to say, the
instruction) was given by the terminal signs which you missed.
The limit has to be adequately conveyed. The terminal signs tell
you where it begins; the reminders are there to remind you it is
still extant. They are not provided as back-ups to the terminal
signs for those drivers who miss them. My view is that you'd
struggle to convince a court that the beginning of the limit was
not adequately conveyed when, on your own admission, you missed
the compliant terminal signs.
But it doesn't matter what I think. If you think you'll succeed,
give it a run. But I would have an EH argument in my pocket
along with a cheque book if I were you.
#Post#: 63306--------------------------------------------------
Re: Exceeding temporary 50 mph limit on motorway - average speed
camera recorded 59 mph
DIR By: ohmygod
Date: March 19, 2025, 5:27 pm
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I appreciate all the advice.
Could such an argument be used as mitigation while pleading
guilty rather as an outright defence? What would be the penalty
if I lost in either situation?
Problem is even if I were not given a ban I'm not sure I'd be
able to keep my car with 12 points.
#Post#: 63309--------------------------------------------------
Re: Exceeding temporary 50 mph limit on motorway - average speed
camera recorded 59 mph
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: March 19, 2025, 5:49 pm
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Literally my first reply to you.
#Post#: 63319--------------------------------------------------
Re: Exceeding temporary 50 mph limit on motorway - average speed
camera recorded 59 mph
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: March 19, 2025, 7:06 pm
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If you are convicted, the court are required by law to give you
3-6 points, unless they decide to ban you outright, or unless
they find that there are Special Reasons Not To Endorse.
An outright ban to avoid totting up would subvert Parliament's
intention in the totting up legislation.
SRNTE is mitigation concerning the commission of the offence
(why you did it) that is so compelling that the court ought not
to endorse your licence - where you are technically guilty, but
are pretty much blameless. For example if you bought insurance
in good faith and the broker turned out to be a con-man, you
would still technically be guilty of driving without insurance,
but it would be manifestly unjust to endorse your licence if you
had no realistic way of knowing. If your argument is that you
didn't notice the terminal signs due to inattention (as opposed
to having any evidence that they were in any way defective), and
that the repeater signs should have been 150 yards closer, IMHO
the only way that would fly would be if 2 of the magistrates
recognised you from the lodge, or if the prosecutor had spent
the entire day so far going out of his way to annoy them.
If there is evidence of cones/roadworks/whatever that would give
rise to the expectation of a reduced speed limit in the mind of
a careful and competent driver, then even less so (if that is
possible)
Any mitigation that falls short of SRNTE won't stop you totting
up. Particularly if you try to argue that the TSM is somehow
"guidance to the law" (whatever that means).
#Post#: 63327--------------------------------------------------
Re: Exceeding temporary 50 mph limit on motorway - average speed
camera recorded 59 mph
DIR By: Freecall
Date: March 20, 2025, 2:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ohmygod link ---
>
>
> Could such an argument be used as mitigation while pleading
guilty rather as an outright defence?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
The problem you have is that it is not really mitigation.
“I wasn't paying sufficient attention and therefore missed the
big terminal signs” doesn't really cut it.
I suspect deep-down that you know that already though.
#Post#: 63331--------------------------------------------------
Re: Exceeding temporary 50 mph limit on motorway - average speed
camera recorded 59 mph
DIR By: JustLoveCars
Date: March 20, 2025, 3:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ohmygod link ---
>
> Aren't the other signs or cones irrelevant in this case?
They're not conveying the speed limit information and thats what
I'm being charged with?
>
--- End Quote ---
Context - cones and other signs should trigger an awareness that
NSL is not in effect. Regardless, the terminal signs did convey
the limit.
--- Quote from: ohmygod link ---
>
> I accept I didn't register the speed change at the terminal
signs (it was dark and my attention was not caught by it), but I
did react to the next sign.
> The camera is positioned around 210m after the terminal signs.
The repeater is another 290m after the camera.
>
--- End Quote ---
Given my calculations if you had reacted when seeing the
repeaters and dropped to 50mph your average would be below the
enforcement limit (+10%+2) - so it appears you continued to
speed anyway.
--- Quote from: ohmygod link ---
>
> I would say the speed was being enforced by the camera before
adequate guidance had been given on the speed limit. In terms of
what adequate would look like I would refer to the 350m
recommended of repeater after a terminal sign in the TSM.
>
--- End Quote ---
I would argue the terminal sign gives adequate notice before
enforcement.
As already noted your choices are limited. Either continue with
the guilty plea and attend could with a well-prepared EH plea or
defend the speeding (with the cost risks attached).
#Post#: 63364--------------------------------------------------
Re: Exceeding temporary 50 mph limit on motorway - average speed
camera recorded 59 mph
DIR By: Freecall
Date: March 20, 2025, 6:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JustLoveCars link ---
>
>
> As already noted your choices are limited. Either continue
with the guilty plea and attend could with a well-prepared EH
plea or defend the speeding (with the cost risks attached).
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Just in case it is not obvious, these choices are not mutually
exclusive.
#Post#: 63369--------------------------------------------------
Re: Exceeding temporary 50 mph limit on motorway - average speed
camera recorded 59 mph
DIR By: JustLoveCars
Date: March 20, 2025, 6:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Freecall link ---
>
> [quote author=JustLoveCars link=topic=5600.msg63331#msg63331
date=1742459637]
>
> As already noted your choices are limited. Either continue
with the guilty plea and attend could with a well-prepared EH
plea or defend the speeding (with the cost risks attached).
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Just in case it is not obvious, these choices are not mutually
exclusive.
[/quote]
True - one should be preparing an EH plea regardless of the
route taken. (If discharged from the speeding offence then that
plea wouldn't be required)
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