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#Post#: 63052--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: gimpel
Date: March 18, 2025, 8:16 am
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--- Quote from: mrmustard link ---
>
>
>
> (I don't understand this explanation - It was my brother
driving I was the black car behind and only he received a pcn I
did not get one - as the car which got the PCN is LS55WCU, the
black car)
>
--- End Quote ---
Ls55 is a dark blue car I was the next car behind him mine is a
black estima
#Post#: 63053--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: gimpel
Date: March 18, 2025, 8:16 am
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Any help in what I can write to them?
#Post#: 63058--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 18, 2025, 8:33 am
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If you intend to make reps then as regards the contravention,
IMO write that the contravention did not occur and on this point
you rely upon the following:
As the marking is a regulatory sign of the form prescribed by
Diagram 1043, Item 25 in the Sign Table to Part 6 of Schedule 9
to the Traffic Signs etc. Regulations you rely upon the
exemption provided at para. 11(3) of Part 7, namely:
3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of
a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of
that expression, apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of
turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the
vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an
oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst
waiting to complete a right turn.
When I first entered the box and stopped, para. 3(a) applied and
when I moved off and stopped subsequently para. 3(b) applied.
If the authority reject these representations then this must be
supported by cogent argument and reasoning and not simply 'we do
not agree'.
You would at least test their argument.
#Post#: 63059--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: mrmustard
Date: March 18, 2025, 8:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
In reply number 3 you gave us FT64722658 and LS55WCU (you meant
FR not FT). That is the vehicle which clearly has the PCN as I
used the council website to watch it.
The black car behind, which I hadn't concerned myself about as
it didn't get a PCN doesn't appear in the video until later and
the camera operator, who appears to be a human, not a computer,
has already selected an allegedly contravening vehicle to focus
on.
Although the black car making its entry isn't shown we know that
the exit was well and truly blocked to overflowing. If you
haven't got a PCN you have been very lucky as you were 100%, in
my view, in contravention.
I'm not going to give you any words to write (which experts
don't generally do, they give you the ground and expect you to
take it from there) as I think LS55WCU should pay the 50%.
If I am wrong about this and the thread has been hard to follow,
start a new thread for the black car if the keeper has been
issued with a PCN and see if any other expert thinks you have a
hope in hell (you will gather that I don't).
HTML https://i.ibb.co/DPz2VF98/car-in-contravention.png
HTML https://ibb.co/9mc580bV
HTML https://i.ibb.co/7NZrHwBY/black-car.png
HTML https://ibb.co/qFcmzthy
(There was an error in my earlier post when I said 'black car'
by which I meant the dark blue one - anyway the first car behind
the white car. - Did you know that Guinness is dark red?)
#Post#: 63060--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: March 18, 2025, 8:39 am
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I posted the video for the PCN concerned - it's not the black
vehicle.
I would try saying the driver entered the box to turn right as
you are allowed to do and the exit was mostly clear and the
contravention is minimal and unfair given one oncoming car took
some space. You can also see the car moving a bit.
#Post#: 63066--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 18, 2025, 8:55 am
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Each to their own, but IMO the problem with such short reps is
that it's difficult to argue subsequently that they've failed to
give proper consideration when there's no depth to the argument.
#Post#: 63067--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: mrmustard
Date: March 18, 2025, 8:59 am
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Fair enough but having lost a similar case I am a little more
cautious at the moment.
Always hard to know exactly where to draw the line.
I did win 7 of 9 yellow box PCNs at the tribunal in 2024.
2240307837 was the twitter featured pcn.
Mr Dishman appeared before me today on behalf of the appellant.
The council did not attend the hearing.
I reserved my decision.
The contravention alleged in these proceedings is that this
vehicle entered and stopped in a box junction when prohibited.
Mr Dishman made submissions in accordance with his skeleton
argument of 31/07/24.
I would accept that this box is marked in an unusual way but, my
having considered the matter, and notwithstanding the marking of
two horizontal lines in the middle of the box, diagonal lines
are not out of kilter. I am satisfied that there is no ambiguity
as to the prohibition on stopping this box conveys. I find that
this box is marked in substantial compliance with the legal
requirements.
The benefit of the right turn exemption is claimed.
The prohibition on vehicles entering and having to stop within a
box junction due to the presence of stationery vehicles does not
apply where a vehicle enters a box for the purpose of turning
right it stopping in the box for so long as it is prevented from
completing that right turn by oncoming vehicles or by other
vehicles being stationery whilst waiting to turn right.
I am not satisfied on the footage that either of these criteria
have been met and I am not accordingly satisfied that the
exemption is applicable.
I find this contravention proved.
#Post#: 63069--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: March 18, 2025, 9:10 am
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It's worth at least making reps on the basis of no ask no get
and that WF will reoffer the discount (unlike Havering). It's
not a frivolous ask.
Not such what depth there is - it's not an exercise in quantum
mechanics.
#Post#: 66485--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: gimpel
Date: April 10, 2025, 10:46 am
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They rejected my appeal :'( see attached anything I can do?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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