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#Post#: 62868--------------------------------------------------
Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after turning
right
DIR By: gimpel
Date: March 17, 2025, 9:10 am
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Hi
I turned right which can be seen clearly on the video on their
website and they issued me a pcn for being on a yellow box
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 62875--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: MrChips
Date: March 17, 2025, 10:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The PCN ref number and vehicle reg haven't come through, please
could you repost? Without these we can't interrogate the video
evidence.
#Post#: 62880--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: MrChips
Date: March 17, 2025, 10:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
In the meantime the photos suggest a potentially unclear exit,
even if your vehicle was turning right, so the video will be
crucial in determining the state of play at the point of entry.
#Post#: 62901--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: gimpel
Date: March 17, 2025, 12:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your reply
pcn ft64722658
Plate LS55WCU
#Post#: 62911--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: March 17, 2025, 12:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I think you were entitled to enter the box to turn right and
it's a minimal contravention. The vehicle behind you not so
much...
HTML https://i.imgur.com/AM2lxlJ.gif
HTML https://imgur.com/AM2lxlJ
#Post#: 62914--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: gimpel
Date: March 17, 2025, 12:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It was my brother driving I was the black car behind and only he
received a pcn I did not get one
It's definitely wrongly issued as we are allowed to stay in a
yellow box to turn right
#Post#: 62916--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: March 17, 2025, 12:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: gimpel link ---
>
> It was my brother driving I was the black car behind and only
he received a pcn I did not get one
> It's definitely wrongly issued as we are allowed to stay in a
yellow box to turn right
>
--- End Quote ---
It's not quite as clear cut if you can see the exit is blocked -
the white car waited as you can see.
#Post#: 62919--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 17, 2025, 12:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
As you were stationary for at least 4 seconds and the whole of
the rear axle plus overhang was within the box then IMO a claim
of 'de minimis' would fail. Therefore, this is the exemption
upon which you are relying:
3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) [stopping in a box
junction] does not, in respect of a box junction within
sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression[your
type], apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of
turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the
vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an
oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst
waiting to complete a right turn.
IMO, a strict interpretation based solely on the wording could
mean you're in a no-win situation. The oncoming traffic had
ceased to impede your manoeuvre, therefore this defence isn't
available, and the other vehicle had already completed its right
turn, albeit that it hadn't left room for you to exit the box.
Let's hope there's wording from successful adjudication
decisions on this dilemma which can be replicated in your reps.
If not, then IMO you should focus on a broad interpretation of
'other vehicle...waiting to complete a right turn'.
Wait for other views.
#Post#: 62928--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: MrChips
Date: March 17, 2025, 1:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
This is a very tricky one! I believe
[member=7]mrmustard[/member] had one in similar circumstances in
Barnet which he was working on (see case in twitter link below):
HTML https://x.com/MrChips69/status/1791443746531275207/quotes
Difference here is that the exit wasn't clear at point of entry,
but would ultimately have been but for oncoming car which turned
left taking your potential spot, which your brother wouldn't
really have been able to predict when he entered the junction.
Generally the overriding requirement is not to enter if you
don't have a clear path out the other side of the box, so I
think chances are probably less than 50% on this one, but well
worth a debate!
#Post#: 62983--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham forest issues PCN for being on yellow box after
turning right
DIR By: mrmustard
Date: March 17, 2025, 5:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I lost the case I put on twitter.
I watched the cctv on the Waltham Forest website.
The white car is ignored as it exited the box even though when
it entered there was half a moving bus in the way.
The black car behind it entered when the exit space was blocked
(freeze the cctv just as its wheels cross the line to prove
this) and then it had to stop so was in contravention despite
turning right. The idea is that the box becomes clear when the
lights go red again and that because the exit is clear the cars
which were queued up when turning right could get out the way
before the other way goes green. If there is no space when you
enter, the idea of the box, free flowing traffic, is frustated.
Given that you knew the car in front they wouldn't have been
upset if you had gone close to them up the inside and got out of
the box but that is to be wise after the event.
I would, if there is no other argument, pay the 50%
(I don't understand this explanation - It was my brother driving
I was the black car behind and only he received a pcn I did not
get one - as the car which got the PCN is LS55WCU, the black
car)
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