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DIR Return to: Speeding and other criminal offences
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#Post#: 61686--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 out of time and police refusal to accept evidence
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: March 10, 2025, 11:46 am
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What is the exact date of the offence and up to what date have
the police said they will accept a completed request for
driver's details?
--- Quote ---
> If he has existing points, do they look at that when
considering what points to issue as I believe the indicator for
his speed is 4 to 6 points?
--- End Quote ---
What difference does that make? Either he accepts he was the
driver or he doesn't. Since a conviction for failing to provide
the driver's details carries six points and the maximum for
speeding (whatever the speed) also carries six points it will
make no difference. As well as that, his decision should be on
the basis of what he knows and accepts.
I think this is becoming a trifle bizarre, especially when you
say the police will accept a response with seven days to go
before the speeding offence times out.
#Post#: 61702--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 out of time and police refusal to accept evidence
DIR By: docklander
Date: March 10, 2025, 12:34 pm
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--- Quote from: BertB link ---
>
> No, but depending on how many points he currently has, a
successful prosecution may trigger a disqualification under the
totting up process.
>
> Would I be right in assuming that he is on 6 points, so 6
points for failure to furnish driver details would put him at
12, versus hoping a magistrate will calculate the original
offence is worth less than 6 points even though he and his car
wasn't at the location?
>
> Yes, that is pretty much spot on.
>
> Where did this CCTV image come from? A neighbour or a
business? It has been mentioned earlier, but the person who
provided the CCTV image can attend court in the case of a NG
plea and testify to its authenticity. Or is that not possible?
>
> On my brothers driveway.
>
> Edit, the speeding only has 7 days until timeout? He doesn't
need a solicitor, he needs to complete the form and make sure it
is back to them and acknowledged within that time period
otherwise they will prosecute for FTF with no speeding option.
>
--- End Quote ---
So this confuses me. If he completes the form, he is stating he
was the driver?
#Post#: 61703--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 out of time and police refusal to accept evidence
DIR By: docklander
Date: March 10, 2025, 12:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> What is the exact date of the offence and up to what date have
the police said they will accept a completed request for
driver's details?
>
> [quote]If he has existing points, do they look at that when
considering what points to issue as I believe the indicator for
his speed is 4 to 6 points?
--- End Quote ---
What difference does that make? Either he accepts he was the
driver or he doesn't. Since a conviction for failing to provide
the driver's details carries six points and the maximum for
speeding (whatever the speed) also carries six points it will
make no difference. As well as that, his decision should be on
the basis of what he knows and accepts.
I think this is becoming a trifle bizarre, especially when you
say the police will accept a response with seven days to go
before the speeding offence times out.
[/quote]
The original date of offence was 19.09.2024. The problem us that
what he knows vs what he accepts are two different things. He is
sure/knows he wasnt there but accepting the speeding offence
seems the lesser of two evils?
#Post#: 61712--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 out of time and police refusal to accept evidence
DIR By: BertB
Date: March 10, 2025, 1:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Only if he replies ticking the 'I was the driver option'. But
any other response is likely to see a FTF charge. The police are
inviting him to cop for the speeding while there is still chance
to prosecute for it. Otherwise they will go for FTF only, which
is a nailed on 6 points unless your brother can defend the
charge in a NG plea.
However it doesn't sound like he returned the form at all
stating he was not the driver/not his vehicle. More just entered
into correspondence instead.
On the face of it, that would make him guilty of failing to
respond to the request.
#Post#: 61716--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 out of time and police refusal to accept evidence
DIR By: docklander
Date: March 10, 2025, 2:09 pm
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So, if he has points on his license already (3 currently, 3
pending), how likely are they to issue 4 points rather than 6,
if a sincere, apologetic stance is taken?
Similarly, how likely is a NG defence to succeed with the
evidence of a CCTV screenshot and a potential reported clone 2
weeks prior to this alleged offence?
Finally, should he declare the previous potential clone to the
existing police force as currently they do not know about it?
#Post#: 61717--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 out of time and police refusal to accept evidence
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: March 10, 2025, 2:10 pm
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--- Quote from: BertB link ---
>
> However it doesn't sound like he returned the form at all
stating he was not the driver/not his vehicle. More just entered
into correspondence instead.
>
> On the face of it, that would make him guilty of failing to
respond to the request.
>
--- End Quote ---
Twaddle. The form is neither here nor there.
The question is whether or not he has told the police that his
vehicle was elsewhere/not involved in the alleged offence.
I have already asked the OP what information has been provided
in response to the s. 172 requirement, and he replied
--- Quote ---
> The owner of the vehicle provided photos of the car and then
an image of CCTV showing the car elsewhere.
--- End Quote ---
Whilst it seems implausible that there wasn't some meaningful
explanation or statement accompanying what would otherwise be a
random collection of holiday snaps, I am not a qualified
dentist.
#Post#: 61806--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 out of time and police refusal to accept evidence
DIR By: docklander
Date: March 11, 2025, 2:55 am
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--- Quote from: andy_foster link ---
>
> [quote author=BertB link=topic=5428.msg61712#msg61712
date=1741633151]
> However it doesn't sound like he returned the form at all
stating he was not the driver/not his vehicle. More just entered
into correspondence instead.
>
> On the face of it, that would make him guilty of failing to
respond to the request.
>
--- End Quote ---
Twaddle. The form is neither here nor there.
The question is whether or not he has told the police that his
vehicle was elsewhere/not involved in the alleged offence.
I have already asked the OP what information has been provided
in response to the s. 172 requirement, and he replied
--- Quote ---
> The owner of the vehicle provided photos of the car and then
an image of CCTV showing the car elsewhere.
--- End Quote ---
Whilst it seems implausible that there wasn't some meaningful
explanation or statement accompanying what would otherwise be a
random collection of holiday snaps, I am not a qualified
dentist.
[/quote]
Andy, when the original letter was received, he wrote to the
police explaining that he did not recognise being in that
location at that time and asked for advice as to how best
complete the form. The police responded by asking for photos of
the car.
Over the next 5 months, email and written conversations
followed. Recently, he sent in a CCTV image of the car on his
driveway. The investigating officer has now referred the matter
to prosecutions but said on 10.03 that he could still complete
the Notice of Intended Prosecution but that had to be done
"asap".
He has not mentioned the previous clone report to another police
force (this was for an alleged offence some two weeks prior to
the one being discussed now).
1. Do all matters passed over to prosecutions proceed to court?
2. If the speeding times out, does it become impossible for a
SJPN to be issued?
3. If an SJPN is still issued and he uses the strategy of
pleading guilty to speeding if the FTF is dropped, can that be
agreed on the lower point basis (4 rather than 6) or does a
judge still need to determine if its a 4 or 6 point penalty?
Thanks again for the advice and help. I am starting to think
maybe I should not have offered to assist him but family eh?!
#Post#: 61814--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 out of time and police refusal to accept evidence
DIR By: disgruntchelt
Date: March 11, 2025, 3:52 am
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Frankly I’m not surprised the police are suspicious. Writing to
say I don’t recognise the location and don’t think my car was
there and then many months later, oh and by the way my car was
actually on my drive as my ring doorbell camera shows is a bit
odd to say the least.
I would have thought the first letter should have said my car
was on my drive as shown on my ring doorbell. The police could
then have checked the footage themselves via the app and seen
your brother was telling the truth.
#Post#: 61816--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 out of time and police refusal to accept evidence
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: March 11, 2025, 4:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
1. The police must issue a "written charge" together with an
SJPN. This must be done before the six month time limit. Once
this has been done it is very unusual for it to be reversed. The
court must deal with it one way or another.
2. It's not impossible but if one is issued the charge can be
defended on the basis that the proceedings were taken too late.
Bear in mind that the FTF offence is not committed until 28 days
after the first request is issued.
3. He does not get to "agree" the sentence. The "deal" (to plead
guilty to speeding if the FTF is dropped) is agreed between him
and the prosecutor. After that the court decides the appropriate
penalty. Tell us the speed and limit and we can give you an idea
of the likely number of points.
My hunch is that, whatever he has done or plans to do, the
police will have begun proceedings by now. There is only eight
days to go before the speeding offence times out. If he plans
not to defend the FTF charge he must hope he is charged with
speeding as well. This will give him the opportunity to offer
the deal. Whether it will be agreed in view of his earlier
insistence that his car was not involved is anybody's guess.
#Post#: 61829--------------------------------------------------
Re: s172 out of time and police refusal to accept evidence
DIR By: docklander
Date: March 11, 2025, 4:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> Tell us the speed and limit and we can give you an idea of the
likely number of points.
>
--- End Quote ---
It was 35 in a 20,
"It's not impossible but if one is issued the charge can be
defended on the basis that the proceedings were taken too late.
Bear in mind that the FTF offence is not committed until 28 days
after the first request is issued."
Does the FTF ever time out?
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