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#Post#: 5179--------------------------------------------------
31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
DIR By: NBSCMN
Date: September 14, 2023, 5:31 pm
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Hi
The back wheels were still in the box junction. Is this
contestable? I wasnt driving but it seems like there wasnt
enough space to move forward
thanks
HTML https://imgur.com/a/9aWD3FY
here is the video
HTML https://imgur.com/a/3ry4t57
#Post#: 5181--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 14, 2023, 6:14 pm
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The only thing I can see having looked at the video, is that it
is a trivial contravention, and could therefore be considered
"de minimis" This argument will be rejected by the council as
they only want your money. However would an adjudicator at
London Tribunals agree it is de minimis ? With your back wheels
in the box, possibly not, so it's a gamble, and you'd be risking
an extra £65 if you took them there.
#Post#: 5185--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: September 15, 2023, 2:22 am
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I would say that this was merely a misjudgement and you could
have crept forward enough to clear the junction so did not have
to stop due to stationary vehicles so no contravention
#Post#: 5188--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 15, 2023, 3:06 am
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The other argument I remembered (this morning !), is that the
driver thought they had fully cleared the junction. I've seen
this succeed a few years ago for entry, when a driver thought he
had stopped clear and not entered, but the car was about 2' into
the junction.
Worth putting forward, I think. What is the traffic management
benefit from walloping people for minor errors ?
#Post#: 5189--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: September 15, 2023, 3:42 am
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It's worth a punt on challenging against their policy on
discretion.
Many London councils have it written into their policy that they
will not enforce for minor infractions such as this...whether
Merton have this, dunno?
#Post#: 5192--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited
DIR By: MrChips
Date: September 15, 2023, 4:59 am
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That's the line I would go with - that you stopped where you did
as you believed you had cleared the junction. Had you known you
were a foot or two inside you'd have crept forward into the
remaining space behind the car in front. In case you aren't
aware, OP, it's not the act of stopping in the junction that's
punishable, it's the act of entering the junction when
stationary vehicles subsequently cause you stop inside. Hence
if you end up stopping because you thought you'd already passed
through and it was physically possible to have exited if you'd
wanted to, then that is a valid defence. The issue here will be
that there seems to have been very little clearance between you
and the car in front - the angle of the video footage makes it
difficult to judge quite how much room there was though so
equally hard to establish that there wasn't quite enough room.
Separately, the photo that was included is very misleading - it
shows no sign of a car in front blocking you in (as it is from
the period after it moves off, after you've already been sitting
in the box for a while). Was that one they provided to you, or
a still you clipped from the video?
#Post#: 5194--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited
DIR By: NBSCMN
Date: September 15, 2023, 6:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
no so these are all the photos provided. and the video which
i've linked already
HTML https://imgur.com/a/bSEKC0g
#Post#: 5212--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: September 15, 2023, 9:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This case needs be considered when thinking of appeal so similar
to yours it could be a twin
2170439250
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of entering
and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The alleged
contravention occurred in Barking Road at 1.49pm on 9 April
2017.
Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs
Regulations and General Directions 2002 states that no person
shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the
vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence
of stationary vehicles. It is an offence to enter the box
without a clear exit and to then stop in the box due to
stationary vehicles in front.
Paragraph 7(2) states that this prohibition does not apply to
any person causing a vehicle to enter a box junction (other than
a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of making a
right turn out of the box and stopping the vehicle for so long
as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming
vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary waiting to
complete the right turn.
I have reviewed the CCTV footage in this case and I am allowing
the appeal. The footage shows that, when Mr Ali's vehicle
entered the box. the traffic beyond the box was stationary but
that there was a space that appeared sufficient for another
vehicle between the box exit line and the first stationary
vehicle. Mr Ali's vehicle entered into that space and stopped so
that just the rear wheels were over the box line. The footage
does not enable me to see whether or not Mr Ali's vehicle had
any further space in front but I suspect that this may well have
been a case where the driver did have sufficient space and that
Mr Ali did not even know that the rear wheels were across the
box line. I am not satisfied that this was a case where the
vehicle was stopped in the box because of the stationary vehicle
in front and I find for this reason that the alleged
contravention did not occur.
#Post#: 5213--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 15, 2023, 10:32 am
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As each case turns on its own facts and we don't know the
distances and spaces referred to in the 'Ali' case it would be a
gamble.
But as I understand the thrust of this argument, the point being
made is one of driver competence, or rather lack of i.e. they
didn't stop in the box because of a stationary vehicle, they
stopped in the box because they're a poor driver who doesn't
know the length of their own vehicle who had stopped because
they thought they were clear. Had they known they were in the
box, they'd have moved forward and had the space to do so.
OP, could you bolster this e.g. their normal car is a Smart car
and they were driving this just for a day etc!
As regards whether the car in this case could have moved
forward, probably. But they're cars, not sardines. Also, how
could the driver be such a good one at the front - squeezing
forward - yet at the same time bad at judging where they were at
the back?
If you're taking this line, think it through to its conclusion.
#Post#: 5218--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: September 15, 2023, 11:34 am
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Talking about driving standards from someone who thinks driving
on the opposite side of the road is illegal is a bit rich
Part of the HGV test requires you to reverse and put your back
end into a metre long box I would venture that even in a car
over 50% would fail this and it is much easier to judge where
the front of your car is than the back
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