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#Post#: 68343--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lincolnshire County council PCN (40) Not displaying badge in
a valid manner Lumley Road Skegne
DIR By: AnnePN
Date: April 23, 2025, 1:13 pm
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> That's been done substantially in your informal reps. The next
stage is formal reps by the keeper once a NTO is received. Any
subsequent 'appeal' to the adjudicator could add references to
tribunal decisions and comment upon the traffic order which
they'd be obliged to supply to you within their evidence.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi H C Anderson I would be very grateful if you could look over
the representation that I have prepared for my daughter to
submit as the owner of the vehicle to see if all points have
been covered
Thank you
#Post#: 69139--------------------------------------------------
NTO stage - Lincolnshire County council PCN (40) Not displaying
badge in a valid manner Lumley Road Skegne
DIR By: AnnePN
Date: April 29, 2025, 1:49 am
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Sorry I cannot find how to edit a post I wanted to add the links
at the bottom and the legislation how a badge is to be
displayed.
[quote author=AnnePN link=topic=5376.msg67593#msg67593
date=1744917046]
This is the representation that I have prepared for my daughter
to submit. Thank you for taking the time to assist me in this
submission
Do I include the copy of text message from Boots and the blue
badge also please?
The vehicle was parked in a disabled bay and a valid Blue Badge
placed on the dashboard together with a clock which is clearly
displayed from the windscreen as shown in CEO's photographs.
The holder of the blue badge was parked for less than 15 minutes
from 9.12am to 9.22 They had an appointment at 9am at Boots
opticians in the Hildreds Centre Skegness, the journey to the
appointment was delayed because they called at an egg
distribution centre to collect eggs for the local food bank on
the way to Skegness and there was a problem there. They arrived
on Lumley Road Skegness at 9.12, parked in the disabled parking
bay and displayed the blue badge and clock. they were unable to
see the optician and were given another appointment for Saturday
8 March (photos of text confirmation of appointment's attached)
They returned to the vehicle to see the CEO placing the PCN on
the car, they couldn’t understand why they were getting the PCN
the CEO pointed out that the time on the clock was 10 am and it
was only 9.22. He had only observed the vehicle for 1 minute
before he issued the PCN the driver arrived as the CEO was
placing the paperwork in the sticky envelope. It would appear
that they did not display the parking clock with the arrival
time of 9.15am correctly as they were in a rush to attend the
appointment they may have caught the clock and accidentally
moved the time that was showing. However, according to the
Disabled Person’s (Badges for Motor Vehicles) (England)
Regulations 2000, using a clock is not a requirement when
parking in a disabled bay.
I am making representations against this PCN on the grounds that
the penalty exceeds the amount applicable in the circumstances
of the case. My detailed reasons are set out below, but before
going into these I would add by way of background that the car
was parked in the bay, displayed a blue badge and was stationary
for less than 30 minutes. They displayed the parking clock out
of habit rather than by virtue of any legal obligation. The
other parking bays on Lumley Road have free parking with a limit
of 30 minutes or unlimited for Blue Badge holders.
I understand that the County Council's traffic order requires a
parking disc to be displayed in this bay in addition to a blue
badge being displayed in the prescribed manner. However, the
contravention grounds state that I was parked without displaying
a disabled badge in the prescribed manner and do not refer to
the parking disc despite this being the only issue between us.
What the authority are attempting to do is to broaden the
specified contravention grounds which refer only to a Blue Badge
to include a parking disc.
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/682/contents
<br
/>
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/682/contents
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/682/contents
<br
/>
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/682/contents
Manner in which a badge is to be displayed
12. For the purposes of section 21(4A) of the 1970 Act a
disabled person’s badge is displayed on a vehicle in the
prescribed manner if–
(a)the badge is exhibited on the dashboard or facia of the
vehicle, or
(b)where the vehicle is not fitted with a dashboard or facia,
the badge is exhibited in a conspicuous position on the vehicle,
so that the front of the badge is clearly legible from the
outside of the vehicle.
This is not lawful because the grounds include two terms defined
in legislation, namely disabled badge holder and badge displayed
in the prescribed manner, and amending these for the council's
own purposes is not permitted. That the TRO requires a parking
clock is not at issue, the council's problem is how they may
enforce this within the limits set by legislation and the
Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance, and using this
contravention description is not an option.
In addition, there is no requirement to display a parking clock
stated on the traffic sign and this is because the sign used is
of the form specified by Ministers in the Traffic Signs etc.
Regulations and therefore compliant with the council's LATOR
duties. However, for the same reasons as above it does not lie
with the council to use this sign to convey a different bespoke
restriction i.e. that because you have placed a time limit on
use of the bay this necessarily conveys an additional,
non-prescribed, meaning namely that a parking clock must be
displayed in the same manner as applies to yellow line waiting
restrictions.
I have included attachments to two cases of a similar nature
namely Mr William Watson - v - St Helens Council and Miss
Michelle Dhillon - v - Leicester City Council.
There is also an Equality Act issue that the Council has a duty
to consider. Regular limited waiting bays don't require the
display of a parking disc clock. By making disabled people set
and display a clock is treating them different to able bodied
people who park in a regular limited waiting bay and it creates
a situation where disabled people have a higher chance of making
an error such as the clock falling off or being set incorrectly.
Timings should be based on CEO observations the same as a
regular limited waiting bay. There is no need to give the
disabled the extra burden of setting and displaying a clock. I
believe that the Council is unlawfully treating disabled people
differently from able bodied people and I ask you to reconsider
your approach to disabled badge holders only limited waiting
parking places.
William Watson v St Helens Metropolitan Council
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j3F5-usOqEk4ZeV4WH8vLjOsB6JaMN5G/view
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j3F5-usOqEk4ZeV4WH8vLjOsB6JaMN5G/view
Miss Michelle Dhillon - v - Leicester City Council
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SWPQvyFnxTCIkzz4XHjTBhchA8i-hvKm/view
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SWPQvyFnxTCIkzz4XHjTBhchA8i-hvKm/view
#Post#: 69141--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lincolnshire County council PCN (40) Not displaying badge in
a valid manner Lumley Road Skegne
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: April 29, 2025, 2:19 am
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Have you received the Notice to Owner yet? If yes, then please
post it up.
And have you checked the V5c registration document for the car?
Is it in your name and is the address correct?
#Post#: 69207--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lincolnshire County council PCN (40) Not displaying badge in
a valid manner Lumley Road Skegne
DIR By: AnnePN
Date: April 29, 2025, 8:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Good afternoon [member=38]Enceladus[/member] thank you for your
reply. The notice to owner was posted above on 10 April reply
#16
I am sorry if the posts have got out of sequence
My daughter is the owner and is aware of the PCN, the V5c
documents are all in order with her name and address which is
where the NTO was sent, I am preparing the representation for
her.
Thank you for your assistance
--- Quote from: AnnePN link ---
>
> The owner of the vehicle has received Notice to owner PCN
QJ4125144A I was the driver but not the owner
> This is what has been received
>
> I look forward to directions as to my next action. Thank you
>
>
HTML https://imgur.com/DLnRFYD
HTML https://imgur.com/DLnRFYD
>
>
HTML https://imgur.com/SZaeH5Q
HTML https://imgur.com/SZaeH5Q
>
>
HTML https://imgur.com/zvpvpGi
>
>
HTML https://imgur.com/He2C8Np
>
>
HTML https://imgur.com/74dq0PI
>
>
HTML https://imgur.com/nPahJGN
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 69655--------------------------------------------------
NTO reps due 7 May - Lincolnshire County council PCN (40) Not
displaying badge in a valid manner Lumley Road Skegne
DIR By: AnnePN
Date: May 2, 2025, 1:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Good morning,
The NTO representation needs to be received by LCC by 7 May. As
I was the driver but my daughter the owner, I have said that I
would compose the reps for her.
The V5c document is in order with the correct address. Details
of the NTO and my reps are above.
I apologise if I am seem to be inpatient but it’s difficult to
know if my reps are getting consideration by anyone
Thank you
#Post#: 69745--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lincolnshire County council PCN (40) Not displaying badge in
a valid manner Lumley Road Skegne
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: May 2, 2025, 9:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If HC Andersen doesn't do something I'll look at this tomorrow.
#Post#: 69939--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lincolnshire County council PCN (40) Not displaying badge in
a valid manner Lumley Road Skegne
DIR By: AnnePN
Date: May 4, 2025, 6:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> If HC Andersen doesn't do something I'll look at this
tomorrow.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you [member=2249]stamfordman[/member] could you take a
look please?
#Post#: 69992--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lincolnshire County council PCN (40) Not displaying badge in
a valid manner Lumley Road Skegne
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: May 4, 2025, 3:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Sorry I've not got much time.
I would start off by saying:
I am disappointed to receive your rejection of informal
challenge given I clearly explained I used the bay for far less
than 3 hours and made an honest error with the clock.
But I must now hold you to the law on your assertion that the
clock is required, as you state "these rules are set by central
government".
I repeat the points of my challenge below, and I request you
quote the regulation you rely on.
etc.
#Post#: 70010--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lincolnshire County council PCN (40) Not displaying badge in
a valid manner Lumley Road Skegne
DIR By: AnnePN
Date: May 5, 2025, 12:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=2249]stamfordman[/member] your advice is very much
appreciated. I hope that the PCN can be cancelled at this stage
as I could not expect my daughter to take the process any
further if she had to take time off work to represent me in an
appeal
I will wait till the end of today give her all the information
to email to LCC in case anyone else takes a look today and adds
info
#Post#: 70021--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lincolnshire County council PCN (40) Not displaying badge in
a valid manner Lumley Road Skegne
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: May 5, 2025, 4:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The council's position, although incorrect, is no doubt
embedded. It's received wisdom(or lack of) as opposed to proper
analysis.
But there you are. They're judges in their own cause until
adjudication..and you've been given two notable decisions on
this point.
Incandescent tried to set your mind at rest (reply #13 I think)
as regards the straightforward nature of 'hearings'..by
telephone or video, probably 15 minutes, but your last post
suggested that you might be minded to pay if the reps are
rejected. Let's hope that you can be guided on this.
Anyway, the only thing I could add to your draft is that the
authority's position is predicated on the booklet 'Rights and
Responsibilities....*'. However, as the publication makes clear,
this is guidance and that as regards interpretation legislation
takes precedence, and you have supplied this in your**
representations.
Looking at dates: NTO issued 9 April; deemed served 11th(day 1);
28-day period ends 8 May. Reps may be made online, so you have a
couple of days.
*- I couldn't get their link to work, was it the same for you?
**- your daughter's.
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