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#Post#: 60427--------------------------------------------------
APCOA - No Valid Payment - Railway Byelaws Bedford Station
DIR By: G6PRK
Date: March 3, 2025, 12:49 pm
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Hi all,
I appreciate that most of this has been covered already, and
I’ve read everything I can find, but I have some questions due
to a specific nuance in my situation.
Until recently, I was the ‘keeper’ of a car under a friends and
family scheme through my friend’s employer. However, I was not
the official keeper on the V5C—this was my friends employer,
herein known as 'the owner company'.
APCOA has issued four tickets for ‘Use of a private car park
without making a valid payment’ at Bedford Train Station,
relying on Railway Byelaws:
• Notice 1: Never received—only the follow-up threat letter. The
owner company has challenged it.
• Notices 2 & 3: Received by the owner company, who named me as
the responsible party. APCOA then reissued them to me. I
appealed [Image 0 Below] but haven’t received a response yet.
• Notice 4: Received by the owner company [Image 1 Below], who
again named me as the responsible party. However, this time,
APCOA stated they could not reissue it [Image 2 Below].
In all 4 cases, payment had been made on behalf of the driver at
the 'at' time stated on the notices, but it's possible that
payment wasn't made at the correct 'start time' - not mentioned
in the notices.
This afternoon I've had two interesting conversations with APCOA
on their live chat [Images 3 & 4 Below]. They're now saying
(amongst other things) that Notices 2 & 3 should never have been
re-issued to me.
Basically, I'm looking for some advice on how to proceed. If
these had been issued directly to me I would simply follow the
common wisdom to ignore, but I'm concerned that the owner
company will potentially pressure me to pay, or pay and expect
me to reimburse. I'd be half inclined to do so in order to make
life easy for myself and my friend, but I really can't bear to
give these companies money.
Image 0 (My Appeal)
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HTML https://i.imgur.com/3596id8.png[/size][/color]
Image 1 (PN)
HTML https://i.imgur.com/LjWt1J3.png
Image 2 (Response from APCOA RE Notice 4)
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HTML https://i.imgur.com/SwXvbvW.png[/size][/color]
Image 3 (First Live Chat Conversation)
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Image 4 (Second Live Chat Conversation)
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Regular, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
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Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif]
HTML https://i.imgur.com/lb8l7Vp.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/mDVROqm.png[/font][/size][/color][/font][/size][/color][/size][/color]
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Regular, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
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#Post#: 60459--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - No Valid Payment - Railway Byelaws Bedford Station
DIR By: b789
Date: March 3, 2025, 7:04 pm
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I really can’t be bothered reading all that swill from “Holly”.
I don’t know why you are wasting your time.
Just ignore everything. They cannot do anything. If it were a
real Penalty Notice, they could only recover it through the
magistrates court. As they are pretending (unlawfully) that it
is a Penalty Notice, they cannot recover it as a civil
contractual matter through the county courts.
Just ignore any further correspondence from them. If they try to
issue a claim through the county courts, it would be thrown out.
#Post#: 60473--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - No Valid Payment - Railway Byelaws Bedford Station
DIR By: G6PRK
Date: March 4, 2025, 3:36 am
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--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> I really can’t be bothered reading all that swill from
“Holly”. I don’t know why you are wasting your time.
>
> Just ignore everything. They cannot do anything. If it were a
real Penalty Notice, they could only recover it through the
magistrates court. As they are pretending (unlawfully) that it
is a Penalty Notice, they cannot recover it as a civil
contractual matter through the county courts.
>
> Just ignore any further correspondence from them. If they try
to issue a claim through the county courts, it would be thrown
out.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hey - thanks for the reply.
As I mentioned in amongst the rambling in my original post - I
completely understand and agree with this perspective based on
reading many posts by yourself and others on this topic.
The issue I have is that they are refusing to transfer
'liability' for one of the notices, and now saying the others
shouldn't have been transferred.
As such, I imagine they will continue to pursue the owner of the
car for at least the one, if not also the other two. I can and
will ignore - but if my friend's employer decides it's not worth
the bother and pay, they will likely seek to recover the costs
from my friend (and therefore me)
I'm trying to get ahead of the situation in any way I can -
other than to tell them not to pay as I obviously already have
done.
Thanks
#Post#: 60480--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - No Valid Payment - Railway Byelaws Bedford Station
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: March 4, 2025, 4:25 am
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--- Quote from: G6PRK link ---
>
> The issue I have is that they are refusing to transfer
'liability' for one of the notices
>
--- End Quote ---
They are claiming that they are pursuing a breach of railway
byelaws. Under these byelaws, it is the owner of the vehicle
that is liable:
[indent](4) In England and Wales
[indent](i) The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other
conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to
14(3) may be liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that
area.[/indent][/indent]
In these cases, APCOA are essentially trying it on - to enforce
a breach of byelaws a criminal prosecution in the magistrates
court would be necessary. APCOA obviously have no interest in
this as any proceeds would not go to them. If you search the
forums you'll see much more thorough explanations from b789
about the issues with this set up, and why it doesn't work, and
therefore why APCOA can be ignored.
There's not much more you can do to get ahead of things other
than to try to convince the company to ignore APCOA's demands.
If they do, then APCOA eventually go away. We've never seen a
single APCOA case go to court, regardless of whether it is a so
called 'penalty' notice or a 'parking charge notice'.
#Post#: 60528--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - No Valid Payment - Railway Byelaws Bedford Station
DIR By: G6PRK
Date: March 4, 2025, 7:01 am
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Okay - thanks.
If they never follow through on any type notice, it begs the
question why does anyone bother paying for parking in the first
place! ;D
#Post#: 60530--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - No Valid Payment - Railway Byelaws Bedford Station
DIR By: b789
Date: March 4, 2025, 7:09 am
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Tell them to show who the “owner” is by referencing the details
from the official “Register of UK Vehicle Owners”.
Have a look at the front of any V5C document and tell us what it
says very clearly on the front, in bold white, capital letters
about ownership.
#Post#: 60547--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - No Valid Payment - Railway Byelaws Bedford Station
DIR By: jfollows
Date: March 4, 2025, 8:13 am
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--- Quote from: G6PRK link ---
>
> Okay - thanks.
>
> If they never follow through on any type notice, it begs the
question why does anyone bother paying for parking in the first
place! ;D
>
--- End Quote ---
A significant percentage of people just pay up because they’re
intimidated or can’t be bothered, APCOA and the rest know this,
how much does it cost to send a letter for which they get £100
in return?
This is the economics of private car parking.
Some companies actually bother to go further, but there are
diminishing returns in this for them.
If you know who does or doesn’t, then - as you say - don’t
bother paying. Until they change their policy.
#Post#: 60554--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - No Valid Payment - Railway Byelaws Bedford Station
DIR By: G6PRK
Date: March 4, 2025, 8:38 am
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--- Quote from: jfollows link ---
>
> [quote author=G6PRK link=topic=5349.msg60528#msg60528
date=1741093318]
> Okay - thanks.
>
> If they never follow through on any type notice, it begs the
question why does anyone bother paying for parking in the first
place! ;D
>
--- End Quote ---
A significant percentage of people just pay up because they’re
intimidated or can’t be bothered, APCOA and the rest know this,
how much does it cost to send a letter for which they get £100
in return?
This is the economics of private car parking.
Some companies actually bother to go further, but there are
diminishing returns in this for them.
If you know who does or doesn’t, then - as you say - don’t
bother paying. Until they change their policy.
[/quote]
I more meant for the original parking! If they don't bother to
enforce it in a remotely legal way, what's the point in paying
at all - let alone for the nonsense notice. I suppose maybe the
actual landowner would take steps eventually if someone really
took the piss.
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> Tell them to show who the “owner” is by referencing the
details from the official “Register of UK Vehicle Owners”.
>
> Have a look at the front of any V5C document and tell us what
it says very clearly on the front, in bold white, capital
letters about ownership.
>
--- End Quote ---
Touché! Presumably they have gotten the details from DVLA by
requesting 'keeper' details rather than owner? Making their
premise that they can only pursue the owner even more farcical?
#Post#: 60561--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - No Valid Payment - Railway Byelaws Bedford Station
DIR By: b789
Date: March 4, 2025, 9:57 am
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Please show us where we can find the official register of
vehicle owners!
The vast majority of keepers who receive these PCNs simply pay
them out of ignorance. Some appeal them on mitigating
circumstances, are unsuccessful and pay up. The very few who
come here for advice and follow it don’t pay penny.
There is nothing for APCOA to change. They simply cannot rely on
PoFA to hold the keeper liable if the driver is not identified.
Most people don’t know about this loophole.
Those that do, and are prepared to take advantage of it, need
never pay again to drop someone off at a barrierless airport
drop off. Simples.
#Post#: 60769--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - No Valid Payment - Railway Byelaws Bedford Station
DIR By: G6PRK
Date: March 5, 2025, 11:33 am
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You're all going to tell me I've the lost the plot, and am
wasting my time, but in attempting to convince the owner of the
vehicle that I am doing everything I can to deal with these fake
notices, I've written a rather lengthy complaint to the PPC.
I'd appreciate if someone could give it a once over to check I'm
not likely to create any new problems for myself.
Hosted on Imgur here
HTML https://imgur.com/a/lLcTXYC
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