DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Speeding and other criminal offences
*****************************************************
#Post#: 60352--------------------------------------------------
Undue Care & Attention resulting in collision. NIP & not
sure what to expect.
DIR By: MaleDriver
Date: March 3, 2025, 8:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi all,
Newly registered here; spent the morning fruitlessly searching
for information and getting only legal representation
adverts/links.
I was involved in a low level bump last week, wholly my fault.
I'd been to have a dental extraction at a health centre. Looking
to turning right out of the health centre car park onto a B
road, cars parked both sides of the road and another car
directly opposite the T junction. Looked left, saw road was
clear, looked right & round parked up vehicles limiting
visibility. Lady at the head of the traffic on the RHS stopped
and motioned for me to have way. I pulled forward and into the
side of a car coming from the left. A momentary lapse of
concentration and bump. Damage to my car was minimal (slightly
dented bumper and cracked headlight cover), damage to other
vehicle was dented doors on the drivers side.
Checked with other driver & passengers for injuries (none) and
began exchanging details. Passenger of other car asked if I
objected to police being called. I said no, go ahead. Police
arrive and also checks for injuries and began taking details,
driving licenses etc. Both drivers breathalysed, no issue there.
A witness took to the time to stop and give both drivers her
details and also gave statement to the police. I understand (ie
do not know for certain) that she said about parked cars,
low/dazzling sun when looking one way down the road I was
turning into, "just one of those things".
Office then advised I would be charged with Undue Care &
Attention & would be getting a NIP through the post as they
didn't have a printer with them. Both drivers then told we were
free to go as both cars were still drivable/road worthy.
NIP (looking like a printed supermarket receipt) came through
the door the following day, advising of Summons to Court and
details would be 'forthcoming'.
I've spent the time since trying to find out what I can expect
from here on in, and before finding this site running almost
exclusively into adverts and links for legal representation. Not
that it is relevant to anyone but me but as a diagnosed
autistic, the uncertainty over what to expect is making me quite
ill.
- As I am inarguably the cause of the collision by turning right
into another vehicle, I plan on pleading guilty.
- I've no prior driving or criminal convictions. This is my
first brush with the police ever.
- I'm 52, driven for 29 years. Did get an automated speeding
ticket for 60mph through motorway roadworks 50mph zone in 2006
- Both the police and my insurers asked if any airbags went off.
They didn't - is this a rough 'rule of thumb' to determine speed
of impact?
- I was given no warning either verbally or via the printed
sheet from my dentist that I should avoid driving or similar
after the tooth extraction. I would have left my car there and
got bus/walked if I'd felt in any way impaired to drive.
- As I am inarguably the cause of the collision by turning right
into another vehicle, I plan on pleading guilty.
A few questions if I may:
- I understand that with a collision and therefore damage being
involved, this automatically means Summons to Court, by passing
fixed penalty or driver awareness courses. Is this right?
- Having received the NIP with driver already identified, all my
details correct etc, is there anything I should do to respond to
it at this stage?
- When the Summons to Court arrives, am I likely to be offered
to be able to submit a guilty plea in writing? If so, is the
fine/points/punishent likely to spelled out before I submit my
plea or does that happen afterwards?
- I read on different sites that the fine can be 'up to £2500',
'up to £5000' and '£unlimited'. Trying to find out the
potential/likely fine for my own circumstances (first time
offender, guilty plea etc) is almost impossible. Even trying to
find out typical fines is impossible. Does anyone have any idea
or experience of what I might expect?
- At what stage should I engage (ie pay for) legal advice? If
offered, should I engage legal advice/repsentation to enter a
written plea?
Apologies for the long post (autism = [I]all[/I] the details in
my case!) and thank in advance for any thoughts anyone might
care to share.
#Post#: 60366--------------------------------------------------
Re: Undue Care & Attention resulting in collision. NIP &
not sure what to expect.
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: March 3, 2025, 9:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Does the NIP ask you to respond (strictly, you don’t respond to
an NIP, you respond to a request under s 172 to name the driver
- though often they are on the same form). Bearing in mind that
as there was an accident that you are clearly aware of no NIP is
legally required, and you were (presumably) identified at the
scene there seems little point in a s 172 notice, but if you
have one you must respond.
For a low level accident such as this, the sentencing guidelines
suggest a fine of between 50% and 150% of your relevant weekly
income (broadly, net after tax) and between 3 and 9 points. The
fine will be reduced by 1/3rd following a guilty plea at the
first opportunity.
On top of this will be prosecution costs (not very large
following a guilty plea) and a victim surcharge of 40% of the
fine.
You can ask for time to pay in instalments. You do not need a
lawyer, and often it is a waste of money.
#Post#: 60371--------------------------------------------------
Re: Undue Care & Attention resulting in collision. NIP &
not sure what to expect.
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: March 3, 2025, 9:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MaleDriver link ---
>
> Office then advised I would be charged with Undue Care &
Attention & would be getting a NIP through the post as they
didn't have a printer with them.
--- End Quote ---
Pet peeve, particularly for those on the spectrum - you are not
being charged with being unduly careful!
As is including statements and questions together in a list.
--- Quote ---
>
>
>
- As I am inarguably the cause of the collision by turning right
into another vehicle, I plan on pleading guilty.
>
- I've no prior driving or criminal convictions. This is my
first brush with the police ever.
>
- I'm 52, driven for 29 years. Did get an automated speeding
ticket for 60mph through motorway roadworks 50mph zone in 2006
>
- Both the police and my insurers asked if any airbags went off.
They didn't - is this a rough 'rule of thumb' to determine speed
of impact?
>
- I was given no warning either verbally or via the printed
sheet from my dentist that I should avoid driving or similar
after the tooth extraction. I would have left my car there and
got bus/walked if I'd felt in any way impaired to drive.
>
- As I am inarguably the cause of the collision by turning right
into another vehicle, I plan on pleading guilty.
>
>
> A few questions if I may:
>
>
>
- I understand that with a collision and therefore damage being
involved, this automatically means Summons to Court, by passing
fixed penalty or driver awareness courses. Is this right?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
We do not doubt that you understand that. We do doubt that it is
a hard and fast rule.
--- Quote ---
>
>
>
- Having received the NIP with driver already identified, all my
details correct etc, is there anything I should do to respond to
it at this stage?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
You have seen the till receipt NIP and we haven't. Unless there
is anything in the NIP that requires, requests or invites a
response, then probably not.
--- Quote ---
>
>
>
- When the Summons to Court arrives, am I likely to be offered
to be able to submit a guilty plea in writing? If so, is the
fine/points/punishent likely to spelled out before I submit my
plea or does that happen afterwards?
>
>
> Yes. No.
>
> [quote]
>
>
- I read on different sites that the fine can be 'up to £2500',
'up to £5000' and '£unlimited'. Trying to find out the
potential/likely fine for my own circumstances (first time
offender, guilty plea etc) is almost impossible. Even trying to
find out typical fines is impossible. Does anyone have any idea
or experience of what I might expect?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Those would be statutory maxima for various offences (off the
top of my head, band 4 and band 5). That is the maximum the law
allows if you were a very, very naughty boy.
The statutory bands are set out in Schedule 2 to the Road
Traffic Offenders Act 1988. The Magistrates' Sentencing
Guidelines, will give you a better idea of what a court might
actually sentence.
--- Quote ---
>
>
>
- At what stage should I engage (ie pay for) legal advice? If
offered, should I engage legal advice/repsentation to enter a
written plea?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
You will not be offered legal aid. If you are pleading guilty,
it is not immediately obvious what benefit paying several
hundred quid for a brief would bring.
N.B. As a matter of law, a person waving flashing you out
(unless acting as a banksman) is deemed to be solely indicating
that they are ceding priority to you, and not advising you that
it is safe to pull out.
In theory, civil liability for the other party's damage and the
criminal offence of careless driving are separate issues, but
both hinge on being negligent. If the circumstances were such
that it was impossible to see the other car, then arguably he
was at fault for driving too fast for the conditions. If you
simply were not looking properly, then it would seem to be
you.[/quote]
#Post#: 60372--------------------------------------------------
Re: Undue Care & Attention resulting in collision. NIP &
not sure what to expect.
DIR By: Sander333
Date: March 3, 2025, 9:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
In the case you have described there are a number of options
open to the police.
There could be an option of a driver awareness course for
example I was knocked off my motorcycle by a car driver who
failed to see me travelling along a major road. He was in the
minor road and pulled out causing me to suffer a fractured spine
and pelvis my brand new motorcycle was written off. He was
offered a driver awareness course which he accepted. I was not
bitter at this as it was an accident and whatever other
punishment was the alternative would not expedite my recovery.
It really depends on what the Criminal Justice Unit decision
maker places on their recommendation. As has been outlined no
NIP required. You will have to wait and see what the next steps
are.
#Post#: 60435--------------------------------------------------
Re: Undue Care & Attention resulting in collision. NIP &
not sure what to expect.
DIR By: MaleDriver
Date: March 3, 2025, 1:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
All,
Thanks for taking the time to reply - everyone has helped in
answering questions, calibrating my expectations and massively
dialing down my anxiety & uncertainty over this. My anxiety
fuelled imagination has been catastophising terribly since last
Thursday.
--- Quote from: Southpaw82 link ---
>
> Does the NIP ask you to respond (strictly, you don’t respond
to an NIP, you respond to a request under s 172 to name the
driver - though often they are on the same form). Bearing in
mind that as there was an accident that you are clearly aware of
no NIP is legally required, and you were (presumably) identified
at the scene there seems little point in a s 172 notice, but if
you have one you must respond.
>
> For a low level accident such as this, the sentencing
guidelines suggest a fine of between 50% and 150% of your
relevant weekly income (broadly, net after tax) and between 3
and 9 points. The fine will be reduced by 1/3rd following a
guilty plea at the first opportunity.
>
> On top of this will be prosecution costs (not very large
following a guilty plea) and a victim surcharge of 40% of the
fine.
>
> You can ask for time to pay in instalments. You do not need a
lawyer, and often it is a waste of money.
>
--- End Quote ---
I had read the sentencing guidelines to try and get an idea, but
this helps narrow those guidelines further. Thankfully I have
savings I can use to meet the cost of a likely fine, having a
reasonably well paid job.
Reassuring to know about probably not needing a lawyer,
especially when planning to enter a guilty plea from the start.
--- Quote from: andy_foster link ---
>
> [quote author=MaleDriver link=topic=5338.msg60352#msg60352
date=1741012413]
> Office then advised I would be charged with Undue Care &
Attention & would be getting a NIP through the post as they
didn't have a printer with them.
--- End Quote ---
Pet peeve, particularly for those on the spectrum - you are not
being charged with being unduly careful!
As is including statements and questions together in a list.
--- Quote ---
>
>
>
- As I am inarguably the cause of the collision by turning right
into another vehicle, I plan on pleading guilty.
>
- I've no prior driving or criminal convictions. This is my
first brush with the police ever.
>
- I'm 52, driven for 29 years. Did get an automated speeding
ticket for 60mph through motorway roadworks 50mph zone in 2006
>
- Both the police and my insurers asked if any airbags went off.
They didn't - is this a rough 'rule of thumb' to determine speed
of impact?
>
- I was given no warning either verbally or via the printed
sheet from my dentist that I should avoid driving or similar
after the tooth extraction. I would have left my car there and
got bus/walked if I'd felt in any way impaired to drive.
>
- As I am inarguably the cause of the collision by turning right
into another vehicle, I plan on pleading guilty.
>
>
> A few questions if I may:
>
>
>
- I understand that with a collision and therefore damage being
involved, this automatically means Summons to Court, by passing
fixed penalty or driver awareness courses. Is this right?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
We do not doubt that you understand that. We do doubt that it is
a hard and fast rule.
--- Quote ---
>
>
>
- Having received the NIP with driver already identified, all my
details correct etc, is there anything I should do to respond to
it at this stage?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
You have seen the till receipt NIP and we haven't. Unless there
is anything in the NIP that requires, requests or invites a
response, then probably not.
--- Quote ---
>
>
>
- When the Summons to Court arrives, am I likely to be offered
to be able to submit a guilty plea in writing? If so, is the
fine/points/punishent likely to spelled out before I submit my
plea or does that happen afterwards?
>
>
> Yes. No.
>
> [quote]
>
>
- I read on different sites that the fine can be 'up to £2500',
'up to £5000' and '£unlimited'. Trying to find out the
potential/likely fine for my own circumstances (first time
offender, guilty plea etc) is almost impossible. Even trying to
find out typical fines is impossible. Does anyone have any idea
or experience of what I might expect?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Those would be statutory maxima for various offences (off the
top of my head, band 4 and band 5). That is the maximum the law
allows if you were a very, very naughty boy.
The statutory bands are set out in Schedule 2 to the Road
Traffic Offenders Act 1988. The Magistrates' Sentencing
Guidelines, will give you a better idea of what a court might
actually sentence.
--- Quote ---
>
>
>
- At what stage should I engage (ie pay for) legal advice? If
offered, should I engage legal advice/repsentation to enter a
written plea?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
You will not be offered legal aid. If you are pleading guilty,
it is not immediately obvious what benefit paying several
hundred quid for a brief would bring.
N.B. As a matter of law, a person waving flashing you out
(unless acting as a banksman) is deemed to be solely indicating
that they are ceding priority to you, and not advising you that
it is safe to pull out.
In theory, civil liability for the other party's damage and the
criminal offence of careless driving are separate issues, but
both hinge on being negligent. If the circumstances were such
that it was impossible to see the other car, then arguably he
was at fault for driving too fast for the conditions. If you
simply were not looking properly, then it would seem to be
you.[/quote]
[/quote]
This is all very, very helpful & informative and reassuring. The
accident was very much my own fault (a simple look left again
after seeing the lady stop her line of traffic to let me out
would have saved me all of this) and I've no intention of trying
to reallocate any blame or responsibility to her.
Knowing I'll likely be able to enter a written guilty plea and
that this may both spare me attending court and may count
towards both fine reduction and prosecution costs is most
reassuring.
--- Quote from: Sander333 link ---
>
> In the case you have described there are a number of options
open to the police.
> There could be an option of a driver awareness course for
example I was knocked off my motorcycle by a car driver who
failed to see me travelling along a major road. He was in the
minor road and pulled out causing me to suffer a fractured spine
and pelvis my brand new motorcycle was written off. He was
offered a driver awareness course which he accepted. I was not
bitter at this as it was an accident and whatever other
punishment was the alternative would not expedite my recovery.
>
> It really depends on what the Criminal Justice Unit decision
maker places on their recommendation. As has been outlined no
NIP required. You will have to wait and see what the next steps
are.
>
--- End Quote ---
Will see what happens when I return a written plea and
acceptance of guilt (should it be offered). And I admire you
lack of bitterness with your own collision/accident.
Thanks again everyone, this is so appreciated!
#Post#: 62543--------------------------------------------------
Re: Undue Care & Attention resulting in collision. NIP &
not sure what to expect.
DIR By: MaleDriver
Date: March 14, 2025, 12:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi all - quick update o the above:
Got letter through from police today (14/3) - been offered a
driver’s education course (3 hours, online, £95) instead of
prosecution, so no fine, points or anything else on condition of
completing the course. Needless to say I’ve accepted, booked and
paid already. Huge weight off of my mind and no longer dreading
the postman/anxiously waiting for other shoe to drop.
Thanks again for everyone's replies
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 1