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#Post#: 60065--------------------------------------------------
PCN - Edinbrugh City Council - Not the registered keeper - Debt
Collection
DIR By: Aton2k
Date: February 28, 2025, 8:03 pm
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Hi all,
Back in 2021 I started to receive PCN letters for a vehicle I
did not recognize (at first) in total there where 5 separate
fines, 4 for parking and 1 for a bus lane, total I think all
combine are sitting around the £600 mark. Knowing that I have
never driven this car or had the car registered in my name, I
contacted the council back when I got my first letter to explain
this to them, they where not interested and just palmed me off
and told me to pay or it would go up, etc.
Annoyed I ignored them and the letters.
Fast forward to August 2024 I started to receive letters from a
debt collection agency threating bank arrestment, I thought now
I really better start digging as to what was going on.
My first port of call was the DVLA, I wrote to them for proof
that I had never been the registered keeper in question, over
the phone they confirmed this right away but I had to wait for
them to reply in writing so I had written evidence to show the
council that I have never been the registered keeper of the
vehicle in question. I also contacted the debt collection
company who said they could put a hold for a month on any
proceedings (bank arrestment etc).
I scanned the letter I got from the DVLA and send the council an
email showing this, this was about a month ago, they got back to
me yesterday.
What they are saying is that they contacted the DVLA who then
passed them over to an insurance company who then passed them
over to a car salvage auction company (the car in question was
an insurance write off and sold via a car auction site). This
car auction site had a record of my self purchasing the car, in
all honesty I thought even this was wrong, but it turns out I
did indeed bid on a vehicle (on someone else's behalf) and won
it, this is going back 5 years or so ago a few months before the
first PCN's.
I also transpires the person who was driving the car never
bothered to apply for the V5 in their name (which us why I think
the DVLA pointed the council to wards to insurance company and
in turn ended up getting my name off the back of the sale of the
vehicle).
My question is this, am I liable to pay for these fines? I was
and never have been the registered keeper, I was not driving the
car and never have driven the car. The person driving the car I
also presume would have had insurance tying him to that vehicle
at the time of the contraventions? I seems like the council are
using a bill of sale for the vehicle to pin these fines on to
me.
Unsure where I go from here, I have purposely not included
street names, pcn codes and other details as to not shoot my
self in the foot, even though I truly have nothing to hide, I've
had fines before and always pay council PCNs if I know I am in
the wrong, but in this case I was not the owner or the
registered keeper of the vehicle.
Any help at all at this stage is much apricate, also I'm in
Scotland as I am sure you know so unsure how the laws work a bit
differently up here to down south etc.
-Aton
#Post#: 60066--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Edinbrugh City Council - Not the registered keeper -
Debt Collection
DIR By: lexy
Date: February 28, 2025, 9:28 pm
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You’re in a really bad spot here.
In England, there’s a special court that acts as the last line
of defence in these cases. It gives councils the final go-ahead
to use bailiffs, and can order them to stop.
That’s not the case in Scotland. Councils can go straight to
bailiffs without touching a court because they have debt
collection powers that English councils don’t have.
I don’t know the process to get this sorted, and I don’t think
anyone else here does either. If I had to guess, I’d say it’s
probably a specific piece of paperwork at the Sheriff Court.
You should speak to Citizens Advice Scotland immediately.
There’s a substantial danger of you having to pay these
penalties, plus Sheriffs Officers costs. They absolutely can and
will just take the money from your bank account.
#Post#: 60078--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Edinbrugh City Council - Not the registered keeper -
Debt Collection
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 1, 2025, 5:51 am
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I scanned the letter I got from the DVLA and send the council an
email showing this, this was about a month ago, they got back to
me yesterday.
We need to see this pl, a precis won't suffice, I'm afraid.
With respect, you've already shot yourself in the foot by
ignoring the PCNs, so nothing's to be gained by redacting info
except your personal data.
Also, pl tell us when the auction took place. You say you bought
the car 'on someone else's behalf' and that you were never the
registered keeper. So how did you dispose of the vehicle to
somebody else, you have a record of selling the car and
financial records showing the purchase and subsequent sale etc?
#Post#: 60082--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Edinbrugh City Council - Not the registered keeper -
Debt Collection
DIR By: Aton2k
Date: March 1, 2025, 6:21 am
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Hi Anderson please see attachment I received from the dvla with
personal details and vehicle registration omitted.
With regards to me purchasing the car, I purchased it on behalf
of someone else, so I never actually sold the vehicle I
purchased it via auction on behalf of someone else (he is not
well versed in computers and I thought I was doing him a
favour). With regards to the sale date I’ve still to establish
this exactly (it was 4/5 years ago and have since changed banks,
and address etc) but the fine would have occurred after the sale
if that is what you are wanting to know.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 60117--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Edinbrugh City Council - Not the registered keeper -
Debt Collection
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 1, 2025, 12:27 pm
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Thanks.
'they got back to me yesterday.', they being the council. We
need to see this pl.
You bought the vehicle because your name was apparently recorded
as being the purchaser. This is the council's starting point
because whoever you passed it to, presumably a friend, did not
register themselves as keeper.
As I understand the law(Road Traffic Act 1991):
2)For the purposes of this Part of this Act, the owner of a
vehicle shall be taken to be the person by whom the vehicle is
kept.
(3)In determining, for the purposes of this Part of this Act,
who was the owner of a vehicle at any time, it shall be presumed
that the owner was the person in whose name the vehicle was at
that time registered under [F8the M8Vehicles Excise and
Registration Act 1994].
How can you prove this was not you?
Having said this, on what basis could the council presume that
you were the person who kept the vehicle.
Perhaps their letter would explain?
#Post#: 60153--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Edinbrugh City Council - Not the registered keeper -
Debt Collection
DIR By: Aton2k
Date: March 1, 2025, 6:03 pm
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Thanks Anderson, I’ve attached the last letter I received from
them.
There last letter really didn’t give much detail to go on to be
honest I think I need to ask more questions tbh.
On point 2 of the road traffic act, I never kept the vehicle,
unsure how I would prove this though or how they could disprove
it more to the point.
On point 3, which I think is the main point here the “owner” is
the person who’s name the vehicle was registered to (I presume
that to be the registered keeper) I already have the letter from
the dvla attached the the previous replies to this thread
proving that I have never been the registered keeper (ever) for
the vehicle I’m question, so surely that in its self should be
proof enough that I have never been the owner and the owner is
presumed the registered keeper?
Thanks
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 60165--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Edinbrugh City Council - Not the registered keeper -
Debt Collection
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 2, 2025, 2:56 am
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OP, with respect you are not making this easy.
Their 'previous letter' set out their reasoning..
..which was?
We need to see everything you have.
Date of sale; this is surely part of what you've redacted from
the SCB sales receipt;
Date of contravention: again, an objective fact.
Your assertions as regards the person to whom you disposed of
the vehicle.(disposed in its legal sense: noun. Selling,
transferring or giving away something. The plaintiff disposed of
some of their assets.) because 'buying on someone else's behalf'
is not in accordance with the (admittedly current) SCB Ts and
Cs.
HTML https://auctions.nsaa.co.uk/TermsConditions
See s.8.
The seller's liability in respect of each Item you purchase ends
upon the transfer to you of such right and title, as the seller
has, and you are on risk for all risks from the moment of the
concluded Contract of Sale for the purchase of each Item. You
must register with the DVLA each vehicle you purchase from the
seller or complete a statutory off-road notification. All fixed
penalty notices and/or other legal demands, fees and charges
relating to each vehicle you purchase will be your sole
responsibility from the Date of Sale of that vehicle.
#Post#: 60188--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Edinbrugh City Council - Not the registered keeper -
Debt Collection
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: March 2, 2025, 5:54 am
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What is the VRM.
#Post#: 60268--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Edinbrugh City Council - Not the registered keeper -
Debt Collection
DIR By: Aton2k
Date: March 2, 2025, 3:23 pm
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Thanks again Anderson give me a day or 2 to get back to you on
this with more details I just have not had the time at the
moment in the middle of a house move, I really appreciate your
replies thus far.
Stamfordman I am unsure, what would knowing or not knowing vrm
affect me? Thanks
#Post#: 60336--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Edinbrugh City Council - Not the registered keeper -
Debt Collection
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: March 3, 2025, 6:03 am
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What is the date of the last logbook change.
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