DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 59866--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: February 27, 2025, 6:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I cannot find any reference to an ECN charge of £80 or that the
owner may be held liable.
If anyone can, pl post a reference.
#Post#: 59875--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
DIR By: 8vaibhav
Date: February 27, 2025, 8:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> Never possible? Well you were informed that another machine
was also out of order. Customer helpline? Is there one - and
chances of it being answered probably low.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree 100% but would it be worth it, can't appeal again and I
would be risking paying £80 instead of £40.
No idea about Customer Helpline number, I didn't see any number
written on the machine or the signage at least.
What should be my next step?
#Post#: 59882--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: February 27, 2025, 8:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The next step in their procedure is a Notice to Owner.
But there's no provision for holding an 'owner' - whatever or
whoever this is supposed to be- liable:
2) The excess charge shall be paid to the Secretary of State, or
to a person authorised by the Secretary of State to receive such
charge on his behalf, by the person who parked the vehicle in
the Park within 14 days of the date of a written demand for the
same.
Depending on the wording of the so-called Notice to Owner, I
cannot find any legal basis for NSL to request the registered
keeper's data from DVLA.
I don't know whether NSL would re-offer the lower rate of ECN
even after unsuccessful 'reps' but if you/the person on whom the
'NTO' would be served want to chance your arm then as far as I
can see the person who is asked to pay on the basis of the 'NTO'
would have these arguments (but whether these directly map
across to stated grounds of 'reps' in the 'NTO' who knows?):
They were not the driver and therefore the person deemed liable
under the 1994 regulations;
There is no basis for an Excess Charge of £80, the most recent
regulations enable a charge of £50;
Contrary to the statement in NSL's letter dated *** none of the
*** unserviceable machines carried any information regarding
phoning for assistance to report broken machines;
Up to whoever thinks they'd receive the 'NTO' as to whether to
let matters run this far.
#Post#: 59897--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
DIR By: 8vaibhav
Date: February 27, 2025, 10:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
>
> Depending on the wording of the so-called Notice to Owner, I
cannot find any legal basis for NSL to request the registered
keeper's data from DVLA.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Many thanks for your response.
I am not 100% sure the Helpline number wasn't stated anywhere
but very likely it wasn't.
Can they use the contact details shared as part of my "appeal"
as an identification of the driver rather than going via DVLA?
NTO (if served) would presumably be served after getting
keeper's details either from my appeal or from DVLA, I am not
sure how likely an NTO would be in this case.
#Post#: 59916--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: February 27, 2025, 3:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
No idea.
There are no regulatory provisions to consult other than those
to which I've referred and these don't refer to NTO or anything
similar.
I've no idea what hymn sheet NSL are reading from but I cannot
suggest the 'owner' risks the discount simply to find out. It's
their choice.
#Post#: 59993--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
DIR By: 8vaibhav
Date: February 28, 2025, 9:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> I've no idea what hymn sheet NSL are reading from but I cannot
suggest the 'owner' risks the discount simply to find out. It's
their choice.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry don't think I understand. The driver's appeal has been
rejected so will lose the discount after 14 days. Then as per
them full liability (and no discount) could be shifted to owner
via an NTO, so the owner never had a discount to begin with. Or
maybe I am missing what you are saying.
In any case, you are tempting me to not pay £40 and see how it
goes. For one I wasn't in the wrong and I have no option to
appeal again as things stand without an NTO first issued.
#Post#: 59999--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: February 28, 2025, 10:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Found the £80....
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/1194/contents/made
Reg. 4.
But cannot find anything which means anyone other than the
person who parked the vehicle is liable, see the 1995 Regs:
7(2) The excess charge shall be paid to the Secretary of State,
or to a person authorised by the Secretary of State to receive
such charge on his behalf, by the person who parked the vehicle
in the Park within 14 days of the date of a written demand for
the same.
(the 14 days has been amended by subsequent regs).
#Post#: 60014--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
DIR By: 8vaibhav
Date: February 28, 2025, 11:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Found the £80....
>
>
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/1194/contents/made
>
> Reg. 4.
>
> But cannot find anything which means anyone other than the
person who parked the vehicle is liable, see the 1995 Regs:
>
>
> 7(2) The excess charge shall be paid to the Secretary of
State, or to a person authorised by the Secretary of State to
receive such charge on his behalf, by the person who parked the
vehicle in the Park within 14 days of the date of a written
demand for the same.
>
> (the 14 days has been amended by subsequent regs).
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks but since I did provide correct contact details and full
address with my appeal, can they claim they know the driver's
contact details and demand that the driver pay?
It seems the defense of "unknown" driver is lost in this case,
correct? So when/if the NTO comes this defense won't work and
liability would be £80. Does this involve court visit then? (May
not be worth the hassle in such a case)
Also, I don't know if it matters but the car is on a lease but
the "keeper" company will certainly share the details of
"leaser" /me if asked. Thought I should share for completeness
in case it's relevant.
Many thanks for your time and help.
#Post#: 60017--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: February 28, 2025, 11:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
As it's a lease car I think it may be best to pay the discount
and get rid of it.
Wait for Mr Anderson but the combination of ECN/lease is not
conducive - they may well just pay it and bill it to you and I
don't know if they can transfer it to you. They may also charge
an admin fee.
#Post#: 60040--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: February 28, 2025, 12:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Ditto,
You've pre-empted my next question regarding who is likely to be
the recipient.
It's a mess.
As for 'It seems the defense of "unknown" driver is lost in this
case,', this is private parking charge-speak (presumably in the
context of Protection of Freedoms Act) whose provisions
regarding 'keeper liability' apply only to unregulated land, but
this land is regulated (under statutory control) so it doesn't
apply.
I've no idea what this so-called Notice to Owner would provide.
You're rather presuming it'll take the form of a NTO under the
Traffic Management Act, with all the niceties of representations
and specified grounds which allow lease and vehicle-hire
companies(these are separate legal entities and different
arguments apply) to relieve themselves of liability by naming a
hirer or lessee. But it can't be the same because there's no
option to appeal to an adjudicator with an ECN.
If your lease company might charge you to administer a NTO then
on balance I'd pay now.
I'd love to know where NSL are going with this but can't ask
you/your lease company to be pathfinders at your expense.
*****************************************************
Page 3 of 4
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page