DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 57858--------------------------------------------------
HARROW Council - 50R Prohibited Right Turn - Kenton Service Road
HA3 - Signs not illuminated
DIR By: echo
Date: February 12, 2025, 1:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Can anyone help me with this?
I recently received a PCN for making a No Right Turn at Kenton
Service Road in Harrow, and I believe the signage at this
location is inadequate, particularly at night. I’d really
appreciate any advice, especially if anyone else has had similar
issues.
Key Issues:
* No Entry & No Right Turn Signs Not Properly Illuminated – The
signs have built-in lights, but they were not working on the
night of the PCN and also when I went back to check.
* No Advance Warning from My Approach – The council claims there
is an advance warning sign, but it is only visible to drivers
approaching from the opposite direction.
* Signs Are Mounted Too High & at a Bad Angle – The No Right
Turn sign looks over 4 metres high to me, making it difficult to
see, especially at night.
* Junction Layout Prevents Proper Reflection – Due to the angle
of approach, headlights do not illuminate the signs effectively,
meaning, if it is actually installed, retroreflective material
is insufficient (they definitely did not look reflective to me
in any case).
* TSRGD 2016 Requirements Not Met – Since there are no 20 mph
restriction signs nearby, I take it this road is 30 mph, from
what I understand TSRGD 2016 requires signs within 50m of street
lighting to be either illuminated or properly reflectorised.
These signs did not meet that requirement.
* Harrow Council Rejected My Request for Clarification – I tried
to call them for advice on sign illumination (on hold for over
an hour, then cut off). When I emailed, they misinterpreted my
message as an appeal and rejected it outright.
Due to this hasty rejection and my sense that this is PCN
unreasonable, I have now drafted an appeal to the London
Tribunals. I’ve included all relevant evidence and references in
my draft appeal, which is attached below.
I also found a post on this forum from someone else who had the
same issue at this location, even during daylight:
Page 1:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-50r-contravention-prohibited-right-turn-did-not-see-sign/
Page 2:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/hounslow-pcn-622/?prev_next=prev#new<br
/>
(Putting links for both pages in as I had some issues with the
previous / next page links going to a different thread)
Any advice on how to strengthen my case would be greatly
appreciated. All evidence is attached below. Thanks!
Google Street View (PLEASE NOTE: it looks very different at
night - see my photos attached)
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/sfd9dBguVqcgTU4x7
PCN Details:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Vi5CAIz.jpeg
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/JdW9pvT.jpeg
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/7sJnurC.jpeg
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/4PmvMfN.jpeg
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/FkrdmxU.jpeg
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/VPQdsFh.png
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/W6QUcVe.jpeg
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/1B9dfYF.jpeg
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/YsOGE69.jpeg
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/zGSoSjy.jpeg
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/xTf6cX3.jpeg
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/uMXNaij.jpeg
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/DaRAAgY.png
::
HTML https://i.imgur.com/SyLJsIb.png
#Post#: 58293--------------------------------------------------
Re: HARROW Council - 50R Prohibited Right Turn - Kenton Service
Road HA3 - Signs not illuminated
DIR By: echo
Date: February 15, 2025, 2:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi, I posted earlier about my PCN appeal regarding the poorly
visible No Entry and No Right Turn signs in Harrow, but I
haven’t had any replies yet. I’d appreciate any input, as I need
to submit my appeal to London Tribunals by Monday.
To summarise the key issues:
•
lights.
•
•
visibility.
•
highlights the lack of visibility.
•
rejected my enquiry as an appeal.
•
the 30mph limit.
I’m finalising my appeal and want to ensure I’ve covered
everything. Has anyone else successfully challenged a PCN for
unclear signage like this junction or a similar location?
Any advice or feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
#Post#: 58304--------------------------------------------------
Re: HARROW Council - 50R Prohibited Right Turn - Kenton Service
Road HA3 - Signs not illuminated
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: February 15, 2025, 4:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
We've seen this location before. This successful case seems
identical to your own: -
--- Quote ---
> ETA Register of Appeals
> Case Details
> Case reference : 2240411930
> Appellant : Ramesh Panchani
> Authority : London Borough of Harrow
> VRM : L4KHU
>
> PCN Details
> PCN :
> Contravention date : 02 Aug 2024
> Contravention time : 10:31:00
> Contravention location : Kenton Road Service Road
> Penalty amount : GBP 130.00
> Contravention : Performing a prohibited turn
>
> Referral date
>
> Decision Date : -29 Nov 2024
> Adjudicator : Edward Houghton
> Appeal decision
> Direction : cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and refund any
sims paid
> Reasons
signs relied on by the Council were sufficiently clear. The
Appellant has always maintained they were not and has produced
photographs in support.
> The site photographs taken on the 12th September, after the
date of the alleged contravention, show the signs as being what
I would regard as sufficiently visible. However the Council has
not provided any photographs confirming the signage to be in
that position before the alleged contravention date; and I have
difficulty confirming from the CCTV footage that either sign was
present. In particular the site photographs show the right hand
sign mounted, with a light, above a No Entry sign. Although the
No Entry sign can be seen I cannot see the No Right Turn sign
and its light above it in the footage, and one would expect it
to be clearly visible if it was there. On the evidence I am
unable to be satisfied that the clarity of the signage is
sufficiently proved and the Appeal is therefore allowed. If any
sums have been paid these must be refunded.
--- End Quote ---
Not only is the advanced warning sign unilluminated, it is
partly turned to face the shops, thus making it likely to be
missed at night, (assuming GSV May 2024 is still correct): -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/fNe9nXkXcQZKc1oZ8
The NRT signs are illuminated, but the one on the left is turned
away from a vehicle approaching along the service road, and the
other one is so high, one must doubt if it would be noticed by
the same vehicle, and also it is end on to this approach, (again
assuming the GSV view is still current).
Councils have a duty under LATOR Regulation 18 to place adequate
signage and to maintain it for the whole life of the
restriction. Here they have failed to do so, particularly
maintenance. Clearly, you can cite the above case in your
appeal, pointing out that your case was also at night.
#Post#: 58307--------------------------------------------------
Re: HARROW Council - 50R Prohibited Right Turn - Kenton Service
Road HA3 - Signs not illuminated
DIR By: echo
Date: February 15, 2025, 6:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your very helpful input Incandescent — this has
been invaluable in strengthening my appeal.
I’ve now revised Point 8 (Legal Precedent) to include the case
reference you provided (ETA 2240411930, Ramesh Panchani v.
London Borough of Harrow). I’d really appreciate it if you could
take a quick look and let me know if I’ve cited it correctly or
if there’s anything I should refine further.
I’ll paste the updated section below — any feedback would be
greatly appreciated!
Thanks again for your help.
::
8. Legal Precedent - Unclear Signage May Render a PCN
Unenforceable
There have been past cases where PCNs were cancelled due to
unclear, obstructed, or insufficiently visible signage. Drivers
cannot be expected to comply with a restriction if the required
signage is not adequately visible. A recent case at this
location ETA Register of Appeals Case Reference 2240411930
(Ramesh Panchani v. London Borough of Harrow, Decision Date: 29
Nov 2024, Adjudicator: Edward Houghton) resulted in a PCN
cancellation due to the council's failure to prove the "No Right
Turn" signs were adequately visible at the time of the alleged
contravention. The adjudicator noted that the council provided
site photographs taken after the contravention date but failed
to prove that the signage was positioned correctly at the time
of the alleged contravention. The CCTV footage did not clearly
show the No Right Turn sign, casting doubt on whether it was
sufficiently visible to motorists at the time.
My case is very similar, as both my case and the cited appeal
occurred at night, which significantly worsened visibility
conditions. The lack of proper illumination further compounded
the issue, making it unreasonable to expect compliance with the
restriction. Additionally, my case presents further evidence
that the built-in sign illumination was not working, a key
factor that was not explicitly considered in the previous appeal
but further undermines the signage adequacy at this location.
Given this prior ruling and the similarities to my case, it is
clear that the signage at this junction does not meet the legal
standard required for enforcement.
I have been driving in London for 30 years and am a careful and
experienced driver. Of course, anyone can claim this, but I have
never previously received a PCN for a similar offence. This
further reinforces that the signage at this junction was
inadequate, as I would not have missed a properly visible
restriction.
::
#Post#: 58309--------------------------------------------------
Re: HARROW Council - 50R Prohibited Right Turn - Kenton Service
Road HA3 - Signs not illuminated
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: February 15, 2025, 11:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Regulation 18 of the LATOR regulations governing how councils
must proceed in order to create a Traffic Regulation Order: -
--- Quote ---
> Traffic signs
> 18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the
order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to
secure—
>
> (a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near
the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order
making authority may consider requisite for securing that
adequate information as to the effect of the order is made
available to persons using the road;
>
> (b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order
remains in force; and (my bold)
>
> (c)in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the
application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of
existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to
avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong
positions.
--- End Quote ---
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 1