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#Post#: 57598--------------------------------------------------
TfL, Being in a Bus Lane, Camden Road SW-BND FROM CAMDEN STREET
DIR By: henryjago
Date: February 11, 2025, 7:57 am
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Received a PCN from TfL for being in a bus lane on 25th Jan.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/aWkGjTh.jpeg
TfL's images available online are here and I have requested the
video.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/ETjjieb.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/lqdaS00.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/XDOukUI.jpeg
I did not realise there was a bus lane at all until I crossed
the junction with Camden Street.
I submitted a representation yesterday morning before I found
this site - my wording was as follows
I am writing to challenge PCN GX2209961A. I wish to contest it
for the following reasons:
1) Advance warning of the bus lane – a blue sign in Camden Road
just before Lyme Street is obscured by a Congestion Charge sign.
Please see Image 1. I stood in the inside lane of the road to
take this photo. I believe there should be adequate advance
warning of the presence of a bus lane.
2) The inside lane becomes the bus lane immediately after the
yellow box junction with traffic lights at Camden Street. The
bus lane is so close to the exit of the junction that the dotted
white line of the bus lane meets the yellow line of the box
junction – please see Image 2. Therefore, motorists driving
straight on at the junction are not permitted to exit the
junction in the inside lane. However the arrow marker on the
tarmac at the stop line at the junction indicates motorists may
continue straight on – see Image 3 taken from Google Street.
This is extremely confusing for motorists. The arrow indicates
continuing straight on in the inside lane is permissible, but
doing so results in a fine. I expect this catches out many
motorists. I think it is reasonable to expect authorities to
ensure signs and road markings are clear, unambiguous and not
misleading.
3) At no point does the bus lane have the words “Bus Lane”
written on the tarmac. Other bus lanes in the Camden area do.
I would therefore request the PCN be cancelled thereby avoiding
further time and effort for both parties. If you do not cancel
it, please send me a form so that I may refer the matter to
London Tribunals.
Thank you.
The three images I refer to are:
Image 1
HTML https://i.imgur.com/swaP8ro.jpeg
- I took this one
Image 2
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/SQW4aN6A3JcsdHCx7
from Google
street, although I took a similar photo. The lines are still the
same
Image 3
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/DPf1zY8sKxUfWfRW6
- Google
Street in Oct 2024 - the arrow I refer to is obscured by a
vehicle in the latest Google map. The arrow is still there now
Other points I intend to raise at the formal rep/Tribunal stage
when TfL knock the informal challenge back are:
1) The van in the images TfL made it hard to move out of the bus
lane once I realised I'd entered it.
2) I had an operation on the 30th Jan - the day the notice was
served (I have the admission/discharge letter). I did not go
through my mail until last week. This left a very short period
to put the informal representation together.
Thoughts/insights very welcome - wish I'd found the forum before
I sent in my informal challenge.
Thanks to all.
#Post#: 57656--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL, Being in a Bus Lane, Camden Road SW-BND FROM CAMDEN
STREET
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: February 11, 2025, 10:36 am
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If and when they reject, come back and I will draft issues re
the PCN too.
#Post#: 57664--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL, Being in a Bus Lane, Camden Road SW-BND FROM CAMDEN
STREET
DIR By: henryjago
Date: February 11, 2025, 10:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I will indeed [member=24]Hippocrates[/member], thanks very much.
I am working on the basis they reject pretty much every initial
representation.
#Post#: 57738--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL, Being in a Bus Lane, Camden Road SW-BND FROM CAMDEN
STREET
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: February 11, 2025, 3:54 pm
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--- Quote from: henryjago link ---
>
> I will indeed [member=24]Hippocrates[/member], thanks very
much. I am working on the basis they reject pretty much every
initial representation.
>
--- End Quote ---
Absolutely spot on, and also >95% of people then cough-up as
well.
#Post#: 58705--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL, Being in a Bus Lane, Camden Road SW-BND FROM CAMDEN
STREET
DIR By: henryjago
Date: February 18, 2025, 6:49 am
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Hello [member=24]Hippocrates[/member]. Coming back to you on
this as requested. I heard back from TfL this morning, the
response came by post. As expected, my informal rep has been
rejected out of hand. They have ignored two of my grounds and
made an error about the third - they state that the legend BUS
LANE is marked on the road when it isn't.
Letter is here:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/q7kzVtH
HTML https://imgur.com/quoFH3U
HTML https://imgur.com/0jFeqmL
I also received the video on CD separately:
HTML https://imgur.com/hFBOsjy
The letter suggests the next step is to wait for the Enforcement
Notice, then make a formal representation within 28 days from
the date on which it is served?
Many thanks.
#Post#: 58923--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL, Being in a Bus Lane, Camden Road SW-BND FROM CAMDEN
STREET
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: February 19, 2025, 2:52 pm
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Yes, wait for the EN and I will be back as promised.
#Post#: 63728--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL, Being in a Bus Lane, Camden Road SW-BND FROM CAMDEN
STREET
DIR By: henryjago
Date: March 22, 2025, 10:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks [member=24]Hippocrates[/member]. Coming back to you as
requested! I received the Enforcement Notice yesterday.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/1cWG5BO.jpg
My plans were to repeat the points I used in the prelim informal
rep (wording above) given TfL's response did not address two of
the three points I made, and included a factual inaccuracy
regarding the last. You suggested there were some anomalies with
the PCN - should I refer to them at this stage too? I am
assuming regardless of what I include, the likelihood is that
TfL will reject out of hand regardless?
Very many thanks for your support!
#Post#: 63775--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL, Being in a Bus Lane, Camden Road SW-BND FROM CAMDEN
STREET
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: March 23, 2025, 4:54 am
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Okay. You can tweak this draft from another case and include the
obscured signage. And edit to say this is a formal
representation against the EN. I would not make any comment re
their initial letter of rejection.
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/tfl-bus-lane-pcn-a406-green-lanes/msg63310/#msg63310
#Post#: 63789--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL, Being in a Bus Lane, Camden Road SW-BND FROM CAMDEN
STREET
DIR By: henryjago
Date: March 23, 2025, 6:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Many thanks @Hippocrates. Does this look okay? I've not included
the images I refer to as they are posted earlier in the thread.
Formal Representation against Enforcement Notice, Penalty Charge
Notice
I am writing to challenge the above PCN regarding an alleged bus
lane contravention.
1. Inadequate advance warning of the bus lane. A blue sign in
Camden Road just before Lyme Street is obscured by a Congestion
Charge sign. Please see Image 1. I stood in the inside lane of
the road to take this photo. There should be adequate advance
warning of the presence of a bus lane.
2. Confusing road markings at the junction with traffic lights
at Camden Street. The inside lane becomes the bus lane
immediately after the yellow box junction with traffic lights at
Camden Street. The bus lane commences so close to the exit of
the junction that the dotted white line of the bus lane meets
the yellow line of the box junction – see Image 2. Therefore,
motorists in the inside lane driving straight on at the junction
are not permitted to exit the junction in the same lane.
However, the arrow marker on the tarmac at the stop line
indicates motorists may continue straight on – see Image 3 taken
from Google Street. The arrow indicates continuing straight on
in the inside lane is permissible, but doing so results in a
fine. I believe there is a duty on TfL to ensure signs and road
markings are clear and not misleading.
3. No BUS LANE legend. At no point does the bus lane have the
words “Bus Lane” written on the tarmac from its commencement at
Camden Street to its end. Other bus lanes in the Camden area do.
The PCN itself its unenforceable because:
4. The reference to The Interpretation Act is both irrelevant
and confusing as the legislation pertaining to Bus Lane
enforcement refers to actions which may be taken by the
authority and/or appellant from the date of the notice.
5. The statement: "Any written correspondence before the issue
of the Enforcement Notice will not be treated as a formal
representation." fetters discretion and is contrary to the
legislation in that it clearly implies that you will send an
Enforcement Notice when the legislation states "may" at 4(3)(e)
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/section/4/enacted
6. The statement: "It will not entitle you to the right of
appeal." is both absurd and flies in the face of the law and
natural justice. Further, the next statement about consideration
seems to contradict what has been previously stated.
7. The statement: "Failure to respond or contact us within 28
days of the service date of this notice will result in the
Enforcement Notice automatically being sent to you after this
period." similarly fetters discretion and also misstates the
time period.
I therefore request the PCN be cancelled thereby avoiding
further time and effort for both parties.
#Post#: 63851--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL, Being in a Bus Lane, Camden Road SW-BND FROM CAMDEN
STREET
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: March 23, 2025, 1:16 pm
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Fine by me.
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