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#Post#: 57247--------------------------------------------------
24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?
DIR By: mubmoh
Date: February 9, 2025, 1:20 am
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Hi,
Sorry to not contribute for my first post. Hope everyone is
well! I will be precise.
Site Reference: A23 Streatham Hill nr Wyatt Park Rd S/B SW2
Alleged offence details:
Exceed a 20 MPH speed limit in contravention of a Local Traffic
Order - automatic Camera device
Recorded Speed: 24 mph
Time: 01:09
Date: 25/01/2025
-System Calibration Date: 7th January 2024 - 6th January 2025
ABOUT MYSELF:
- I am able to do speed awareness course,
- Never had points on license with 5 years of driving
- Work in motor trade for a living.
Possible defence in court:
- System was out of calibration at time of offence.
- Offence occurred at 1am, where roads were empty, and no
pedestrian flow at all.
- Came off a previous 30mph adjacent road.
- Never had previous driving convictions with 5 years of
experience, no nature of hazardous driving.
- 24MPH is 10% + 2MPH of 20 speed limit.
- Speeding conviction will heavily negatively impact my
livelihood, as insurance premiums are based on driving ability,
I currently pay £4.5k yearly (motor trade policy) and struggle
with companies willing to insure me.
Do I have a case strong enough to appeal the decision? What's
the best way to go about it and additionally the best argument
to use?
Many thanks
Much appreciated.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 57249--------------------------------------------------
Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?
DIR By: Freecall
Date: February 9, 2025, 2:52 am
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Nothing to appeal at present, you have not been convicted.
--- Quote from: mubmoh link ---
>
>
> ABOUT MYSELF:
> - I am able to do speed awareness course,
> - Never had points on license with 5 years of driving
> - Work in motor trade for a living.
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
All totally irrelevant.
--- Quote from: mubmoh link ---
>
>
>
> Possible defence in court:
> - System was out of calibration at time of offence.
> - Offence occurred at 1am, where roads were empty, and no
pedestrian flow at all.
> - Came off a previous 30mph adjacent road.
> - Never had previous driving convictions with 5 years of
experience, no nature of hazardous driving.
> - 24MPH is 10% + 2MPH of 20 speed limit.
> - Speeding conviction will heavily negatively impact my
livelihood, as insurance premiums are based on driving ability,
I currently pay £4.5k yearly (motor trade policy) and struggle
with companies willing to insure me.
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
These are not valid defences.
OK, theoretically to be pedantic, if true, the first one could
be but in practice you can disregard it.
#Post#: 57250--------------------------------------------------
Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?
DIR By: Freecall
Date: February 9, 2025, 2:55 am
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Also, to put your mind at rest a bit, you may be over-worrying
about the potential impact on your insurance premiums.
#Post#: 57358--------------------------------------------------
Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?
DIR By: mubmoh
Date: February 10, 2025, 12:11 am
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--- Quote from: Freecall link ---
>
> Nothing to appeal at present, you have not been convicted.
>
> [quote author=mubmoh link=topic=5031.msg57247#msg57247
date=1739085614]
>
> ABOUT MYSELF:
> - I am able to do speed awareness course,
> - Never had points on license with 5 years of driving
> - Work in motor trade for a living.
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
All totally irrelevant.
--- Quote from: mubmoh link ---
>
>
>
> Possible defence in court:
> - System was out of calibration at time of offence.
> - Offence occurred at 1am, where roads were empty, and no
pedestrian flow at all.
> - Came off a previous 30mph adjacent road.
> - Never had previous driving convictions with 5 years of
experience, no nature of hazardous driving.
> - 24MPH is 10% + 2MPH of 20 speed limit.
> - Speeding conviction will heavily negatively impact my
livelihood, as insurance premiums are based on driving ability,
I currently pay £4.5k yearly (motor trade policy) and struggle
with companies willing to insure me.
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
These are not valid defences.
OK, theoretically to be pedantic, if true, the first one could
be but in practice you can disregard it.
[/quote]
Sorry, the defence would be I was not speeding or doing over the
20mph speed limit.
My rebuttal to the police claim of having evidence of me doing
over the speed limit would be that their evidence should be
dismissed as its accuracy cannot be trusted upon due to being
uncalibrated, and the margin of my accused speed is small enough
to a reasonable threshold to allow for doubt.
#Post#: 57362--------------------------------------------------
Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: February 10, 2025, 2:54 am
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Your task will be to convince the court that the device is so
unreliable that they cannot depend on its measurements so that
they are sure of your guilt.
The calibration certificate being out of date is unlikely, by
itself, to cast sufficient doubt in the court's mind. A device
does not become unreliable the day after its certificate
expires.
Firstly I would ask the police whether they have provided you
with the most up to date certificate. If they have it may prompt
them to discontinue out of "embarrassment." If they haven't it
will save you a lot of money.
If you are convicted following a trial you will pay a fine of
half a week's net income, a surcharge of 40% of that fine and
prosecution costs that will be at least £650 and possibly more
if the police have to provide expert evidence.
#Post#: 57386--------------------------------------------------
Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?
DIR By: Freecall
Date: February 10, 2025, 5:16 am
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As NewJudge says, it woold be down to you to prove that the the
equipment could not be relied upon.
You are therefore going to need an expert witness who a) is
convinced that the equipment cannot be relied upon and b) is at
least as credible as the expert witness the CPS/police will use.
Hopefully you have (very) deep pockets.
#Post#: 57433--------------------------------------------------
Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: February 10, 2025, 7:33 am
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To expand a little, the evidence provided by speed detection
devices is covered by Section 20(4) of the Road Traffic
Offenders Act. It says this:
(4)A record produced or measurement made by a prescribed device
shall not be admissible as evidence of a fact relevant to
proceedings for an offence to which this section applies unless—
(a)the device is of a type approved by the Secretary of State,
and
(b)any conditions subject to which the approval was given are
satisfied.
I don’t believe any devices currently in use have annual
calibration among the conditions of their type approval (though
you’d need to check the particular model concerned). Regular
calibration is therefore a recommendation rather than a
requirement.
This leaves you in the position that the evidence provided by
the device will be admitted by the court and relied upon to be
accurate unless the contrary can be proved. You would not have
to prove that deficiency to the criminal standard (“beyond
reasonable doubt”) but you would have to cast sufficient doubt
in the minds of the Magistrates so they could not rely on it.
Whilst the lack of a current calibration certificate might help
your defence if you used it to support or reinforce other
evidence, I do not believe that the fact the calibration was
less than three weeks overdue will provide sufficient doubt.
I think if that is the sole basis of your defence, you can look
forward to an expensive day out. If the police do not decide to
discontinue enforcement if and when they realise the calibration
certificate is out of date I think accepting the course, which
they will almost certainly offer, would be the pragmatic thing
to do.
#Post#: 57498--------------------------------------------------
Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: February 10, 2025, 12:23 pm
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--- Quote from: Freecall link ---
>
> Nothing to appeal at present, you have not been convicted.
--- End Quote ---
The OP was asking about "appealing the decision" [to process the
allegation]. The title of the thread included that question "Can
I beat the case?".
In many cases, the word "appeal" is used incorrectly, but the
meaning is clear - is it a fait acomplis, or is there some
viable challenge?
In this case, you simply cherry picked the word appeal out of
context.
--- Quote from: mubmoh link ---
> [quote author=mubmoh link=topic=5031.msg57247#msg57247
date=1739085614]
>
> ABOUT MYSELF:
> - I am able to do speed awareness course,
> - Never had points on license with 5 years of driving
> - Work in motor trade for a living.
>
--- End Quote ---
All totally irrelevant.[/quote]
Twaddle. Whilst most of what the OP has written constitutes
grasping at straws, the first item in his "ABOUT MYSELF" section
is very relevant. Nothing that he has disclosed suggests
anything like a viable defence, for reasons that most of us have
been through more times than we would like to count, his options
for avoiding points are basically either the prosecution making
such a monumental horlicks of the case on the day that not even
the legal advisor can bail them out, or taking the speed
awareness course that he can expect to be offered (assuming that
he does not fire off a blunderbuss "challenge" to the police
which they interpret as an intention to defend in court.
#Post#: 57567--------------------------------------------------
Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?
DIR By: Logician
Date: February 11, 2025, 5:14 am
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"24MPH is 10% + 2MPH of 20 speed limit."
That formula gives the speed at which the police will normally
take action, not the speed you can do before they take action,
if you have read otherwise elsewhere it is wrong, and a mistake
often made. Just to make it clear, as soon as you exceed the
limit you are committing the offence, but the police use their
inherent discretion not to take action until a higher level.
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