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#Post#: 4806--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: mooney11
Date: September 10, 2023, 3:51 pm
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Thank you.
I'm very tempted by that option as more than anything, I want to
move on from all of this.
I am totally baffled why I was told they'd be in touch once a
CVP court slot becomes available given then that I've not
actually performed the SD. it would have made sense if they'd
said they'd be in touch with a date to perform the SD. I looked
back through the emails and when they asked me to fill in both
the SD forms & SJP, they said about the SJP that "please could
you action and sign the attached SJP forms, we do accept just
the typing of your name in the relevant section".
So if I was only minimally required to put my name on them then
I'm taking that to mean that they can't really mean very much.
Maybe they were sent to me simply because I'd never seen them
before and it was more of a box ticking exercise.
#Post#: 4836--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: September 11, 2023, 2:08 am
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What do these "SJP" forms actually say?
#Post#: 4839--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: mooney11
Date: September 11, 2023, 2:43 am
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The SJP's are the originals that would have been sent to my old
address, which I've attached to this post.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 4853--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: September 11, 2023, 6:03 am
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I really cannot see how these matters can be put to you again
unless you perform an SD. They have been dealt with. You have
been convicted of the s172 offences and, presumably, the police
"offered no evidence" on the speeding charges.
If you want to leave matters as they are I suggest you contact
the court and tell them you no longer wish to make your SDs.
#Post#: 4859--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: mooney11
Date: September 11, 2023, 6:58 am
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Thanks.
That certainly seems the most risk-averse option, but also the
least palatable (6 points, two MS90 codes & an £816 fine hanging
over me).
The other option could (should!) conclude with no points,
significantly less fines, no MS90's and no further ban, but is
largely at the discretion of a magistrate who might have had a
bad week or influenced by a prosecutor who feels particularly
blood-thirsty that day.
I think my options are now pretty clear so thank you for that.
One last question: suppose I'm given a date to perform an SD.
Once at the magistrates, I assume I should request to thrash
these details out with the LA/prosecutor before actually
performing the SD? Firstly because I'd need to establish
whether the prosecution would accept the deal to drop the s172
convictions, and secondly because I'd have the benefit of
explaining the circumstances so everyone is at least on the same
page. Should I have doubts or detect reasons to be concerned,
can I walk out the door without performing the SD?
Or is that me attempting to have my cake and eat it?
#Post#: 4873--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: September 11, 2023, 9:16 am
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I think at the very least you should establish whether, once you
have made your SD, the prosecutor is willing to do the deal. If
not, obviously you needn't bother.
As for the rest. Most prosecutors are not bloodthirsty. Doing
the plea deal (in normal circumstances) is never generally a
problem and I believe there is only one instance on Pepipoo
(which goes back a bit) where the deal was turned down. On that
occasion the defendant was "less than polite" to the prosecutor,
demanded this and that and told the prosecutor what he ought to
do. So the prosecutor showed him and he ended up with nine
points. In the main, provided they are sure you are not trying
to evade your just deserts they simply want to see justice
properly done.
I don't believe it will rest on what sort of day the Magistrate
has had (and your case will probably be heard by a panel of
three lay Magistrates rather than a District Judge alone). It is
almost certainly a situation that they will not have encountered
before and they will rely heavily on their Legal Advisor (who
will probably be in the same position). So it should revert to
what is "just."
IMHO, what is just is four lots of three points, a totting up
ban (already served) and a licence free of points at the end of
that ban. If you had heard about, and responded to each of these
allegations in the usual way, that's exactly what would have
happened. In fact, you would probably have been offered a course
for one of them, but that's by the way. The complication is
largely of your own making but an administrative oversight
should not see an outcome that is so radically different to what
would have occurred normally.
The fly in the ointment as I see it is that when you perform an
SD, all the penalties and orders that were made as a result of
the convictions you declare you were unaware of are set aside.
That's fine when it comes to financial penalties and points -
the money can be returned and the points removed from your
record. But you served a ban as a result of those convictions
and that cannot be reversed. That's why I believe a just
solution should be found to take that into account.
I don't think there's much more I can add. Of course all this is
only my own opinion, but it's the best I can offer.
#Post#: 4912--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: mooney11
Date: September 11, 2023, 3:16 pm
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I really appreciate your input - absolute legend, thanks!
If I am to press ahead with the SD - and I think I may just go
for it - then I will certainly be using much of the reasoning
you've formulated. Given the difficulty in explaining the
muddled chronology, I think I'll prepare the simplest and most
concise written statement and use that as the basis for
explaining the situation to the in-house legal advisor, and
maybe even seeing if they'll read it through themselves to get
the lay of the land.
Thank you again.
Unless anyone else has any thoughts to contribute or some
unexpected plot twist arises in the meantime, I'm hoping the
next time I post here will be to say everything has concluded in
"just" way.
Cheers
#Post#: 5112--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: mooney11
Date: September 14, 2023, 5:39 am
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I sought some clarity from Bath magistrates about the process as
I'm awaiting a CVP hearing and didn't really understand why
given I thought I was waiting for a date to perform the SD. I
also made clear I'd like to attend in person rather than have a
CVP. Here's the email I had back from Bath Magistrates:
--- Quote ---
> The first hearing will be via CVP and will be for the Court to
consider allowing the making of a statutory declaration only,
they will go through the forms you have completed and confirm
with you the details of how and when you found out about the
case.
>
> If they allow the statutory declaration then the conviction
and sentence imposed previously will be removed and the two
original offences will be put back to you to enter a plea. If
you are intending to plead not guilty to the offences then those
offences will be further adjourned to a trial date when you must
attend and you will then be able to present your evidence etc.
--- End Quote ---
If I'm understanding that correctly, should they permit the SD
then we basically do the next bit there and then via video link
(if I plead guilty, which I've said I would on the SD forms),
which isn't going to help me because my circumstances really
need to be understood by the court prior and I'd have wanted to
speak with the in-house legal advisor about this before anything
further took place. Being at home on a glorified Zoom call
doesn't help!
Procedurally/process-wise, is the above not a bit unusual? Would
it be worth responding with a summary of my circumstances,
explaining why I wouldn't want a CVP hearing? I'm mindful that
I'd be conveying this to a court administrator (who I assume is
not the same as the courthouse legal advisor).
#Post#: 5126--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: September 14, 2023, 8:07 am
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It is not unusual at all. However, if you want a hearing in
person then you will have to make an application (now or on the
day) for the court to do so, with reasons.
#Post#: 5154--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: September 14, 2023, 10:52 am
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I'm concerned when you refer to the "in-house legal advisor".
Do not get confused between this and the "duty solicitor" (whose
services you will not be eligible for). The LA's primary duty is
to advise the Magistrates (who are not legally trained) on
matters of law. But they also have a duty to ensure that
unrepresented defendants understand the court process and what
is required of them, and also explain what they can and cannot
do. But they cannot provide you with legal advice (as the duty
solicitor does). The time you really need the LA is when your
prosecutions are considered afresh. You then need the LA to
guide the Magistrates through this notion that you have already
served a "totting up" ban for what will be (if your "deal" is
accepted) four speeding offences. If that is not properly
explained, the court will see you arrive with six points, have
six more imposed and so believe you are liable as a "totter" to
a ban.
If your video hearing is only to consider whether or not they
will hear your SD (and perhaps hear it if they agree) then there
is little that you can do during that hearing. However, it would
be better if you could get the prosecutor's view as to whether
your "deal" would be acceptable. If it won't be, there is little
point in you performing your SD.
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