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DIR Return to: Speeding and other criminal offences
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#Post#: 4730--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: September 10, 2023, 7:08 am
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The fact that you keep on saying 127 when I pointed out that
it’s 172 is oddly grating on me.
#Post#: 4740--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: mooney11
Date: September 10, 2023, 8:23 am
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Ah ha! I don't know how I've got into the habit of typing it
that way! But... Really? I'm here worried if I'm facing another
6 month disqualification and we're focussing on me mixing up two
numbers that make no difference to the understanding of my
question.
Now that we've established I'm a muppet... Are you able to help?
#Post#: 4754--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: slapdash
Date: September 10, 2023, 10:24 am
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A second totting ban is for 12 months I believe.
#Post#: 4756--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: September 10, 2023, 10:38 am
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--- Quote from: slapdash link ---
>
> A second totting ban is for 12 months I believe.
>
--- End Quote ---
Which would be quite unjust.
It seems the OP has been concurrently conducting two threads on
the same issue here and on Pepipoo which I'd failed to notice:
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=148851
His situation is not straightforward and it seems I managed to
grasp it correctly in post #108 on Pepipoo:
- 2 x s172 convictions. Six points each, six months totting up
ban (all of which you were not aware of).
- After those convictions, 2 x speeding convictions. Three
points each (of which you were aware).
- Current situation: ban ended, six points on your licence. You
want to perform a Stat Dec to have the s172 convictions set
aside and you hope to be able to do a "deal" to have them
dropped in exchange for a guilty plea to the underlying speeding
offences. You have been provided with the original SJPNs for
those two incidents and are awaiting a hearing to do the SDs and
request your "deal."
#Post#: 4763--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: mooney11
Date: September 10, 2023, 11:02 am
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--- Quote ---
> It seems the OP has been concurrently conducting two threads
on the same issue here and on Pepipoo which I'd failed to
notice:
>
--- End Quote ---
In the month and a half that had elapsed since I'd last posted
on the other forum/thread, this new forum had popped up. I
didn't know to what extent the old forum was still in use and at
the time I couldn't locate my thread in the Speeding sub-forum
or from my profile so posted here. I found it the old thread
after having posted on here via a Google search.
I figured there's no harm in being on both given it might
improve the chances of being responded to.
#Post#: 4774--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: September 10, 2023, 12:12 pm
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--- Quote from: mooney11 link ---
>
> I figured there's no harm in being on both given it might
improve the chances of being responded to.
>
--- End Quote ---
Indeed not. I wasn't moaning! 8)
I was simply keeping people on here appraised of our exchanges
in Pepipoo.
Perhaps we'll stick to this forum as there seems to be more
engagement with your problem.
#Post#: 4781--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: mooney11
Date: September 10, 2023, 12:42 pm
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Happy to stick to this forum! Pulling my Q's over:
1. Am I definitely unable to withdraw the SD/SJP at this stage?
Generic Google searches suggest that withdrawing from SJP is
very difficult (but not necessarily impossible). Given how long
it took to perform/be sent the SD forms and the ban being served
(+ the unusual SD+SJP's being sent together at the same time),
would I really have no way to drop the matter at this stage?
Seems odd there wouldn't be some kind of eject button if
circumstances have changed from the time a person was referred
for a SD to the point at which they either get to perform it
and/or a new trial takes place.
2. Can I be dual convicted of both the S172's and the underlying
offences? If not, then would one option be to plead guilty to
the original s172's (assuming no further punishment could be
enforced given I've already served the ban for them) rendering
the underlying offences obsolete? (if in fact they would be
obsolete).
Of course the ideal situation is I proceed as planned, explain
(with the help of the LA) what the situation is and the
magistrates agree that I'm not to be banned again (and then I
deal with the DVLA separately to the extent necessary). Am I not
left hoping that everyone understand the situation and agrees to
proceed with common sense rather than there being something in
law I can point to for this unusual circumstance? I suppose the
counter would be that this gets thrashed out before the
proceedings begin so would have some idea of the position of the
prosecution maybe beforehand?
#Post#: 4787--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: September 10, 2023, 1:37 pm
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--- Quote from: mooney11 link ---
>
> Happy to stick to this forum! Pulling my Q's over:
>
> 1. Am I definitely unable to withdraw the SD/SJP at this
stage?
>
--- End Quote ---
As I said, I don't understand why you have been sent the SJPNs.
The allegations to which they refer have already been dealt
with. These resulted in your 2 x s172 convictions. I cannot
realistically see how they can try these matters again unless
you perform an SD. If they mention both s172 and speeding, you
have been convicted of the s172 charges and the speeding
prosecutions cannot succeed as they have no evidence that you
were driving (this is the "leverage" you have when you offer to
do your deal).
--- Quote from: mooney11 link ---
>
> 2. Can I be dual convicted of both the S172's and the
underlying offences? If not, then would one option be to plead
guilty to the original s172's (assuming no further punishment
could be enforced given I've already served the ban for them)
rendering the underlying offences obsolete? (if in fact they
would be obsolete).
>
--- End Quote ---
You can only be convicted of speeding if you provide some
evidence that you were driving. Without it the prosecution
cannot succeed. The underlying offences are therefore all but
obsolete.
--- Quote from: mooney11 link ---
>
> Of course the ideal situation is I proceed as planned, explain
(with the help of the LA) what the situation is and the
magistrates agree that I'm not to be banned again (and then I
deal with the DVLA separately to the extent necessary). Am I not
left hoping that everyone understand the situation and agrees to
proceed with common sense rather than there being something in
law I can point to for this unusual circumstance? I suppose the
counter would be that this gets thrashed out before the
proceedings begin so would have some idea of the position of the
prosecution maybe beforehand?
>
--- End Quote ---
The law cannot deal with every eventuality and I cannot see how
it can deal with your situation. This means some discretion (and
possibly common sense) is required. Nothing is guaranteed, of
course. But I suggest you request a personal appearance so that
you can discuss these matters before they come before the
Magistrates.
Of course if your deal is declined (to essentially swap the s172
convictions for speeding) then you know where you stand. You
simply decline to perform your SD, the s172 convictions remain,
you have been sentenced for them and already served your ban.
Unfortunately you are stuck with the MS90 endorsements and the
six points for the other two speeding offences. But you will be
no worse off than you are now.
#Post#: 4802--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: mooney11
Date: September 10, 2023, 3:19 pm
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Thanks, that super helpful and makes sense.
I think one point I'm maybe confused about is the "perform" part
of the SD. All I've done is sent the completed SD forms back via
email. Is that considered to be "performed", or does that only
occur in person? I was under the impression that performing an
SD was something that had to be done in person, given that they
told me back in March that I'd be given a date to do it. I ask
because if the SD hasn't technically been performed then maybe I
could withdraw it (I'm not expecting you to know whether I could
actually withdraw it; I'm just giving my thought process in case
Andy_Foster gets upset again).
#Post#: 4803--------------------------------------------------
Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: September 10, 2023, 3:30 pm
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During the pandemic some courts were accepting SDs by phone (for
obvious reasons).
As far as I know, all courts have now resumed normal service and
that means an SD must be "sworn" in person, under oath.
The form you have completed provides details of the reasons you
want to make the SD and contains the statement you will make
orally when you swear your SD. So you don't need to withdraw it
as it hasn't yet been made. You can let the court know that you
no longer wish to make it, however.
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