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#Post#: 56765--------------------------------------------------
Operation Snap - When does evidence have to be disclosed?
DIR By: Bash D Bishop
Date: February 5, 2025, 10:54 am
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Had a NIP for careless driving. I was at the location on the
time and date stated on the NIP. No idea what I'm supposed to
have done. Contacted ticket office. They've said it was video
submitted via Op Snap. :-\ I've asked for a copy of the video
but they have refused. From what I've read, this seems normal.
>:( I think they should have to disclose, especially if the
driver has no idea what they've supposed to have done. In any
case, I've returned the S.172 saying I was the driver.
At what point are they obliged to disclose the video? I know I
might be offered a course or fixed penalty but I'd like to see
what I'm being accused of before I accept. If I choose to fight
it, when can I expect to be provided with a copy, before the
first SJP hearing or only after I enter a 'not guilty' plea? I'd
rather not go to a trial if I'm bang to rights.
#Post#: 56779--------------------------------------------------
Re: Operation Snap - When does evidence have to be disclosed?
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: February 5, 2025, 11:59 am
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The legislative purpose of the requirement to serve a NIP within
the 14 days is to enable the accused to recall the incident that
gave rise to the allegation, and potentially gather evidence
while it is still relatively fresh in his mind.
There is case law where the police have gotten the time wrong,
but the accused knew exactly what the incident/allegation was,
and the error did not invalidate the NIP as the legislative
purpose was achieved.
There is other case law where the correct road was identified,
but was held to be unduly vague as the police could have
provided more precise information, and the NIP was invalidated.
Where the police have [in their own minds] ticked a box by
specifying which umbrella offence is alleged but not
meaningfully describing the allegation such that the accused
would be able to recall the incident in question, I would
suggest that the NIP would be invalid. I would also suggest that
it might be prudent to set out your stall early by responding
asking them to clarify what exactly is alleged.
N.B. There appears to be a question mark over whether the 14 day
rule applies if a member of the public reports an incident too
late to serve a NIP within the 14 days. If that was the case,
then where there is no requirement to serve a NIP, there can be
no defence from a failure to comply with a non-existent
requirement.
N.B. Whether you think that they should be obliged to disclose
the video at this point is irrelevant beyond indicating how
appropriate your chosen username is or is not. What matters is
what the law says.
#Post#: 56964--------------------------------------------------
Re: Operation Snap - When does evidence have to be disclosed?
DIR By: Bash D Bishop
Date: February 6, 2025, 10:48 am
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Thanks andy_foster
The alleged incident happened in Durham constabulary area on the
A68. I do the journey relative often and know the road well.
There does tend to be a lot of people who are happy doing 40-50
mph while I like to press on a bit. I know I was in the area as
I've looked back at the history on my cars app as well as Google
timeline. The most annoying part is I have dashcam with a 512Gb
card but due to a bug, it has periodically been continuing to
record long after the car has stopped. This meant the recording
for the trip in question were overwritten.
My only thought is someone has taken exception to an overtake
and the police have viewed the footage that was submitted and
agreed with them. However, I don't recall anyone flashing lights
or blasting their horn during the trip.
As I said, I've responded to the S.172 so will wait and see what
their next move is.
I'm aware that they aren't legally obliged to provide any
evidence at this stage but that doesn't stop me from believing
that the law is wrong and they should disclose what evidence
they have.
As I said in my original post, if I decide (or they decide for
me) to take this to court, at what point are they required to
disclose the evidence they will rely on? Before the first plea
hearing, or only after a NG plea is submitted and a date for
trial is set?
#Post#: 56981--------------------------------------------------
Re: Operation Snap - When does evidence have to be disclosed?
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: February 6, 2025, 11:53 am
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I find your assumption that the police would necessarily have
viewed the footage before sending out a NIP, and by implication
before subsequently offering an educational course that they get
a kick-back from, amusing.
#Post#: 56984--------------------------------------------------
Re: Operation Snap - When does evidence have to be disclosed?
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: February 6, 2025, 12:15 pm
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If you reject any out-of-court offers they may make (course or
fixed penalty) you should be served with the "Initial Details of
the Prosecution Case" along with your "Single Justice Procedure
Notice". This is basically the evidence hey intend to rely on to
convict you and you can examine his before you enter your plea.
#Post#: 57032--------------------------------------------------
Re: Operation Snap - When does evidence have to be disclosed?
DIR By: Bash D Bishop
Date: February 7, 2025, 12:32 am
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--- Quote from: andy_foster link ---
>
> I find your assumption that the police would necessarily have
viewed the footage before sending out a NIP, and by implication
before subsequently offering an educational course that they get
a kick-back from, amusing.
>
--- End Quote ---
Seriously? You think they'd fire out a NIP without properly
reviewing the video? If that's their modus operandi, it's very
concerning.
#Post#: 57033--------------------------------------------------
Re: Operation Snap - When does evidence have to be disclosed?
DIR By: Bash D Bishop
Date: February 7, 2025, 12:34 am
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--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> If you reject any out-of-court offers they may make (course or
fixed penalty) you should be served with the "Initial Details of
the Prosecution Case" along with your "Single Justice Procedure
Notice". This is basically the evidence hey intend to rely on to
convict you and you can examine his before you enter your plea.
>
--- End Quote ---
Do you think that would be the video, stills or just a statement
from the evidence officer?
#Post#: 57043--------------------------------------------------
Re: Operation Snap - When does evidence have to be disclosed?
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: February 7, 2025, 2:53 am
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Don't know, I'm afraid.
The definition of careless driving is "that which falls below
the standard expected of a competent and careful driver." Very
often, whether an episode of alleged poor driving reaches that
threshold or not is a matter of opinion. If the evidence offered
is just a statement expressing an opinion based on the video,
you have a good argument to see the video because your opinion
(and more importantly that of the court) may differ from that of
the person who decided enforcement was appropriate.
#Post#: 59653--------------------------------------------------
Re: Operation Snap - When does evidence have to be disclosed?
DIR By: Bash D Bishop
Date: February 25, 2025, 10:36 am
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Well, well, well. This is unexpected.
A couple of weeks ago I wrote to the ticket office saying that
having reviewed my dashcam footage (a little bit of lie as it
had been overwritten) for the part of the journey stated on the
NIP, I was still no wiser as to what the allegation related to.
I stated I had overtaken a couple of vehicles but did not
consider any aspects to be below the standards of a competent
driver. I asked that the video submitted by the member of the
public be reviewed by a senior officer to check if the threshold
test for a conviction for carless driving had been reached.
I'd heard nothing until today when a letter arrived. I expected
it to say what the next steps would be but much to my surprise
it said that having reviewed the video again, it had been
decided that no further action would be taken but that it would
remain 'on file'. Not sure why it would remain on file, but I'm
not in the habit of poking sleeping dogs so will leave it at
that.
It does make me wonder if andy_foster was right when he said, "I
find your assumption that the police would necessarily have
viewed the footage before sending out a NIP".
#Post#: 59690--------------------------------------------------
Re: Operation Snap - When does evidence have to be disclosed?
DIR By: speedfighter23
Date: February 25, 2025, 1:19 pm
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Good result!
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