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#Post#: 4560--------------------------------------------------
Fixed Penalty Notice - Newhan London
By: anisj Date: September 7, 2023, 8:45 am
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Hi all
I am reaching out to you for a non-motoring matter. My father
(69 years of age - retired) who rarely leaves his home was
harassed by an official in London, accusing him of littering by
throwing a cigarette butt onto the ground. My father has
received a Fixed Penalty Notice as a result.
- My father does not understand what rights he has when
situations such as these occur and if challenged as he was on
this occasion, what he can and cannot do.
- My father was frightened into handing over his personal
details due to the aggressive approach, demands and behaviour of
the officer
- The Fixed Penalty Notice he has received is addressed to the
correct address but the surname on the notice is incorrect. The
surname noted on the letter and notice document is completely
different to his actual surname. It's not a spelling mistake but
rather a different surname altogether
- The officer (not a member of the police) was nowhere near my
father (when the incident is meant to have occurred). The
officer casually walked from the other side of a busy road over
to my father and asked my father if he smoked before accusing
him of littering
- My father did not litter or throw any cigarette butts (as
accused). My father does smoke and was not smoking at the time.
He smokes roll-up cigarettes (Golden Virginia tobacco) and not
branded cigarettes which was what the officer accused my father
of throwing to the ground. Also, my father doesn't smoke in
public. Probably because I've told him off many a time for
respecting the air which other people breath.
- There is no video or photographic evidence to support this
allegation
- The letter accompanying the Fixed Penalty Notice states "an
authorised acting on behalf of London Borough of Newham Council
witness you/gathered evidence of you committing an offence under
the Environmental Protection Act 1990".
- The letter accompanying the Fixed Penalty Notice doesn't have
the officer's signature on it as it's a templated letter from
the council. However, the Fixed Penalty Notice itself states “I
have reason to believe that you committed an offence” and this
notice is signed by the officer who harassed my father. This
Fixed Penalty Notice should have stated the same message as the
accompanying letter if the officer was telling the truth rather
than having a reason to believe.
I can provide copies of the letter and fixed penalty notice if
required.
I hope we can clear my father's name
#Post#: 4595--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Newhan London
By: DancingDad Date: September 7, 2023, 4:22 pm
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Simplistic is if you pay the FPN, that is it, all done and
dusted.
If you don't, you (dad) may end up with a summons to magistrates
court.... though with the wrong name whether that would stand up
is a different matter and IMO likely to provide enough hassle
that they would give up..... not a legal viewpoint BTW.
Assuming it did end in court, the authorised agent will be
swearing that they saw dad smoking and drop the butt end.
Dad will be saying he wasn't smoking and didn't litter.....
Magistrates decision would come down to whether there is
sufficient evidence to find guilty, basically credibility of the
two parties.
You come across as credible, can the same be said for
Dad...remembering that you were not there and he may have been
having a crafty roll up and doesn't want to admit it to you.
Why a authorised agent should pick on Dad and ask if he smoked
seems weird.
They do have the powers to demand name and address though cannot
force the issue without proper police, who can arrest if needed
AFAIK
If it came to court and found guilty, fines and costs would be
far higher then the FPN.
As I say, not legal advice as such, just saying as I see it.
#Post#: 4606--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Newhan London
By: H C Andersen Date: September 8, 2023, 2:49 am
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My father has received a Fixed Penalty Notice as a result.
The Fixed Penalty Notice he has received is addressed to the
correct address but the surname on the notice is incorrect. The
surname noted on the letter and notice document is completely
different to his actual surname. It's not a spelling mistake but
rather a different surname altogether
Then he hasn't been served with a FPN, you cannot just adopt
something that's wrongly made out to this extent.
I suggest someone else in the household writes to the council:
Dear Sir,
FPN ******
The enclosed FPN was delivered to ******(address)on *****. It
was addressed to ****** (name), however, there is no-one by this
name at this address as your council tax and electoral roll
records would show. It was opened in error, for which I
apologise, and is enclosed.
Yours....
#Post#: 4617--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Newhan London
By: anisj Date: September 8, 2023, 5:02 am
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Thank you for the replies!
I've attached the letters (redacted of course), which show the
initial templated letter and the signed FPN by the officer which
explicitly states "I believe" - which to me does not explicitly
confirm he 'witnessed' as documented in the templated letter.
Believe and witness are very different statements.
With regards to the council itself, my father lives near
Manchester hence does not fall under the council's tax records
but certainly votes hence his details are on the electoral roll
records.
We're not a family that tries to avoid paying our way - we are
law abiding, tax paying citizens. My father has worked for over
40 years and paid all the tax, fines etc and is the first to
admit liability if he was at fault. He just cannot stand it (and
fights) scenarios where he knows he is being wronged.
I will look to write to the council with what you have suggested
H C Anderson. However, I'll hang on for the time being, until
next week before I send a reply on his behalf.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 4618--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Newhan London
By: Southpaw82 Date: September 8, 2023, 5:23 am
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[quote author=anisj link=topic=497.msg4617#msg4617
date=1694167346]I've attached the letters (redacted of course),
which show the initial templated letter and the signed FPN by
the officer which explicitly states "I believe" - which to me
does not explicitly confirm he 'witnessed' as documented in the
templated letter. Believe and witness are very different
statements.[/quote]
I think you’re reading far too much into it. The wording merely
reflects the statutory requirement that the person issuing the
FPN must believe that an offence has been committed. One assumes
they hold that belief because of the evidence in their
possession, including the evidence that the witness could give.
[quote]I will look to write to the council with what you have
suggested H C Anderson. However, I'll hang on for the time
being, until next week before I send a reply on his behalf.
[/quote]
Your father might be better off dealing with the substance of
the allegation rather than playing dumb as to the name on the
letter. If he has a credible defence to the allegation then
adopting a combative attitude that a court may in future view as
“playing silly buggers” may undermine his credibility.
#Post#: 6088--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Newhan London
By: anisj Date: September 26, 2023, 6:00 am
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Hey all
Sorry - have been unwell and away from tech to even reply.
We didn't get around to sending any representation off for the
allegation hence my father has received a '1st reminder' letter
advising him to pay within 7 days (which have passed) as he only
handed the letter to me over the weekend.
The letter states the case will be submitted to the legal team
and prosecution proceedings will begin if payment hasn't been
made.
Due to illness - I wasn't able to give this my attention on
behalf of my father.
Does anyone have any advice?
He is still insistent on his part of the story - he is not at
fault. The 1st reminder still displays the wrong name as
previously mentioned.
#Post#: 6152--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Newhan London
By: ivanleo Date: September 26, 2023, 3:34 pm
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Well throwing procedural issues to one side, it seems a
straightforward question of undermining the officer's
credibility in cross-examination. The problem is that this would
require your father to cross-examine the officer, and that is
not something for the uninitiated. You will not be able to
represent your father in court as you don't have rights of
audience.
So the natural question seems to be, could you father
realistically conduct his own defence in a criminal trial?
If not, then realistically you'd want to look at getting a
solicitor to represent him. The problem with that is that the
cost of the solicitor is likely to outweigh any fine that would
realistically be imposed (a few years ago it was a standard £220
fine for this sort of offence and I can't imagine it's changed
much).
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