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#Post#: 56339--------------------------------------------------
Ealing - cumberland Road W7 - code 53J - failing to comply with
a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
DIR By: ankazo
Date: February 3, 2025, 6:09 am
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[member=1]cp8759[/member]
HTML https://imgur.com/a/0I8EnK5
Ealing - cumberland Road W7 - code 53J - failing to comply with
a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
My husband had meeting with customer who lives at this street.
My husband is a kitchen fitter (self employed) , customer
purchased the kitchen form a company and he had prefit survey
booked with customer to measure up the kitchen. . Entered zone
at 14:50:32 and restricted zone is from 14:45. He did not notice
a sign, also customer did not mention about restriction prior
his arrival. Contacted customer to see if can help to make an
appeal, however she doesn’t own a car, so therefore doesn’t have
permit and no any previous experience with such a situations
I think I got until tomorrow to either pay or appeal so will
appreciate your help.
Road starts being two way direction, and one way direction after
the sign
No signs at entering the road
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/nwoESdkqNbyXm1MW9
A sign further down - there is road before the sign to turn
right to allow drivers to not enter the restricted area
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/6zLDAcDvNnzAiDdV9
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 56389--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - cumberland Road W7 - code 53J - failing to comply
with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: February 3, 2025, 10:41 am
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For a head-on approach, the signs are correctly positioned and
seem clear enough on GSV. The approach from the side road,
(Manton Avenue) has an advance warning sign as the main signs
cannot be seen until one starts the turn.
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/UUnfj6Jtm5ANbQwA9
So it does seem to have adequate signage in place. I'm puzzled
why your husband failed to see the main signs, because they are
in use for Low Traffic Zones and School Streets all over London.
Normally in cases where permit holders are permitted, a
tradesman obtains a Visitor Permit from the householder so that
when a PCN is entered, it can be presented as evidence of having
a permit.
Difficult to advise what to write as representations other than
to say that when he arrived at the address, the householder had
no permit or any visitor permits for him to use, so request that
the PCN be cancelled in the circumstances.
Remember the signs for next time; they are all over London, and
known at "FLying Motorbike" signs !
#Post#: 56403--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - cumberland Road W7 - code 53J - failing to comply
with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
DIR By: ankazo
Date: February 3, 2025, 11:17 am
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thank you very much for prompt response.
He was approaching from Boston road - so sign was literally in
front of him - not too sure why he did not notice it...Will try
to write an appeal today .
#Post#: 56419--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - cumberland Road W7 - code 53J - failing to comply
with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: February 3, 2025, 12:16 pm
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[member=4304]ankazo[/member] put a draft on here first please.
#Post#: 56435--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - cumberland Road W7 - code 53J - failing to comply
with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
DIR By: ankazo
Date: February 3, 2025, 1:25 pm
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[member=1]cp8759[/member]
Please see below and I would appreciate if you let me know what
you think about it - any recommendation/amendments ?
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice
number ...... , issued for failing to comply with a restriction
on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone, on Cumberland Road, W7,
with contravention code 53J on 15/01/2025.
I am a kitchen fitter and had an appointment scheduled with a
customer at 69A Cumberland Road to conduct a pre-fit survey (to
measure up a kitchen prior to installation). Upon arrival, I
found that the householder, Miss Angela, did not have a valid
permit or visitor permits available for my use. Unfortunately, I
was unaware of the local parking restrictions and was not
informed of any such restrictions by the customer prior to my
visit.
I am not familiar with the area and used a satnav for directions
to the property. At no point during the lead-up to this
appointment was I advised of any parking limitations or zone
restrictions in place on Cumberland Road. This lack of awareness
contributed to my inadvertent violation.
Given the circumstances, I respectfully request that this PCN be
cancelled. I hope you will take into consideration the fact that
this was an honest mistake, made in good faith, with no
intention of disregarding local traffic regulations.
Thank you for your time and understanding. I look forward to
your favorable response.
Yours faithfully,
#Post#: 56444--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - cumberland Road W7 - code 53J - failing to comply
with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: February 3, 2025, 2:34 pm
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[member=4304]ankazo[/member] well we'll have to do a lot better
than that as your draft is bound to be rejected. This case
warrants using the strategy of last resort, which involves:
1) Making a plea for discretion, and
2) tripping the council into demonstrably failing to consider
your representations.
Step 1 involves appealing to the authority's discretionary power
not to enforce, which is a power only the council has (the
tribunal cannot allow an appeal on this basis).
Step 2 involves giving the council a link to a video or image
you want them to consider as mitigating evidence, and setting it
up view a click / view counter so we can prove whether they're
looked at your supporting evidence or not. If they fail to look
at it, you can then win on a failure to consider.
If they then send you a boilerplate rejection and don't look at
the evidence, we can prove a failure to consider and that is a
ground on which the tribunal can allow an appeal.
Do you have anything we can use as mitigating evidence? In your
case anything like an invoice, quote, appointment letter from
the customer and so on could be used. The best evidence to use
in this scenario is always video evidence, but you might not
have any.
#Post#: 56446--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - cumberland Road W7 - code 53J - failing to comply
with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
DIR By: ankazo
Date: February 3, 2025, 2:54 pm
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[member=1]cp8759[/member]
I only have prefit survey cdm plan doc which uploads in the
system on the iPad after the survey is completed - this doc
includes customer full name and address, other not important in
that case information and at the bottom is date when the survey
was completed, fitter's name, company name (pcn is issued for
company) - but no time.
I also have text messages with customer when meeting was moved
from 6pm - and also customer confirms address in that message
- so if I take one screenshot address can be seen - I attached
screenshot
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 56464--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - cumberland Road W7 - code 53J - failing to comply
with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: February 3, 2025, 4:09 pm
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ankazo if you'd like me to help setting up the links please
contact me privately and we can arrange that.
#Post#: 79388--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - cumberland Road W7 - code 53J - failing to comply
with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 3, 2025, 5:32 am
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Outcome
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oVNJw_bH6U6ARp55bKtt3JDkk47hY-wl/view.
#Post#: 82307--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - cumberland Road W7 - code 53J - failing to comply
with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
DIR By: Bustagate
Date: July 23, 2025, 6:34 am
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Why Aren't School Streets Cases Won on Inadequate Signage?
@cp8759 I don't understand why cases such as this aren't won by
challenging the adequacy of the signage.
This is the view at the point where, at the specified hours, a
driver has to decide to turn right in order to avoid a PCN: the
chances of turning round once you've passed the sign are
minimal; in any case, the camera sign suggests that you're being
photographed as you pass the sign.
[attachimg=1]
Can you read the times when the sign applies? If you can, how
long does it take you to work out how those times relate to the
current time and whether, if you're going to a call-out, you
will still be in the zone (whose extent you don't know) when the
zone comes into operation.
The image is 20m before the signs. There has been no previous
indication of the restriction ahead, so what you see here is all
you've got to go on. If you're doing 20 mph, the thinking
distance for an emergency stop is 6m and the braking distance is
6m. Do you slam on the brakes? If you've been caught by one of
these signs before, perhaps you do. You'll come to a halt with
the front of your vehicle aligned with the far kerb of the road
to the right. You'll have to reverse to make the turn, but will
avoid a PCN.
Advice in Traffic Signs Manual
Section 6.2 of Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual has these
examples of diagrams 618.3B and 618.3C showing restrictions
which apply for limited periods or days:
[attachimg=2]
At most one range of days and at most one range of times is
specified. The text about the top panel on the sign states:
--- Quote ---
>
> Where the zone operates only on certain days of the week and
for 24 hours on those days, the days only are shown on the sign
... If the zone is part‑time, the operational period is
shown in the upper panel
--- End Quote ---
Exceptions are set out on the next (middle) panel. Here the text
states:
--- Quote ---
>
> A time period indicating when the exceptions apply (if
different from the zone operational period) may be included in
the middle panel. It is recommended that where more than one
exception is shown on the sign, each applies for the same time
period, otherwise the sign becomes complex and difficult for a
driver to assimilate. If different time periods are required for
each exception, it is likely to be more appropriate to use the
variable message sign.
>
--- End Quote ---
The text thus acknowledges the possibility of more than one time
period in a day for exceptions but uses the singular for the
period of operation.
Working Drawings and FoI Request
I'm still waiting for a reply from DfT to my FoI about the
working drawings for diagram 618.3C
HTML https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/working_drawings_for_tsrgd_2016.<br
/>In this FoI I've asked whether the available options for
diagram
618.3C (other than a variable-message sign) include in the top
panel:
- more than one range of days, e.g. Mon, Wed-Fri
- more than one time period, e.g. Midnight - 11am // 4pm -
Midnight.
The working drawings usually help resolve these issues. They
include the full range of options for the sign. In this case
they're no help because they're actually for diagram 618 from
TSRGD 2002
HTML https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62613c24e90e07168973e182/traffic-sign-drawing-schedule-08-part-02-item-02-p618x3.pdf<br
/>and are dated 2005.
Unless anyone has any better information, I'd say the jury is
out on whether diagram 618.3C can have two periods of operation
specified in the upper panel. If they can't, these School
Streets signs are non-prescribed. Perhaps that's why DfT haven't
answered my FoI yet.
DfT Recommendation on When to Use Variable Message Sign
Regardless of whether DfT agrees that the upper panel of diagram
618.3C can display two periods in a day, it has gone on record
in paragraph 6.2.5 of Chapter 3:
--- Quote ---
>
> 6.2.5. If the entry restrictions change during the day or on
different days of the week, a variable message sign is
recommended to avoid a complex legend that can be confusing and
difficult to read. In this case, the upper panel should not
include a time period. The sign should show a complete blank
grey or black face, as defined in Schedule 1, during the times
when the zone is not operational. The lower yellow panel can be
displayed on the variable message sign only during the
operational period of the zone (i.e. when the upper and middle
panels are displayed).
>
--- End Quote ---
To understand why, let's consider the x-heights involved. The
text below the flying motorcycle has an x-height of 37.5mm. This
contrasts with 50mm for the equivalent Except plates on a
free-standing diagram 619 and 75mm for the Except plates below
diagram 616. Thus the text on diagram 618.3C is half the size
(and therefore visible from half the distance) considered
necessary for an important message such as an exception from a
No Entry sign.
Complexity of Ealing's Sign against DfT's Most Complex
On Ealing's signs, there are four different times to 15-minute
precision with 37.5mm x-height. These are switching on and off
what is, to motor vehicles, a No Entry sign.
People process text by reading it. Let's count the syllables
about days and times of operation in DfT's most complex sign and
Ealing's:
[indent]
DfT: Mon to Sat Ten to Four − 6 syllables
Ealing: Mon to Fri Eight Fif-teen to Nine Fif-teen Two For-ty
Five to Three For-ty Five − 19 syllables
[/indent]
So Ealing's days and times of operation are more than three
times the complexity of the most complex days and times shown
for these signs in the Traffic Signs Manual. Talk about
cognitive overload. Is it any wonder that DfT recommends the
variable-message form of the sign for this situation?
A Question
If traffic authorities choose to ignore DfT recommendations,
they should expect to lose challenges made to the adequacy of
their signage. Motorists can't read these signs and act on them
before they reach the point of no return. Yet somehow, traffic
authorities are winning these cases repeatedly. Why?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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