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#Post#: 56004--------------------------------------------------
Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
DIR By: Sander333
Date: January 31, 2025, 7:21 am
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The Registered keeper has received a Parking charge notice
issued to the driver of a motor vehicle for parking not wholly
in parking bay in an Industrial Estate. Upon entering the estate
there are no signs to indicate that the Estate is private
land.The driver wanted to visit Toolstation and upon driving
into the parking bay noticed a parking sign left the vehicle not
wholly parked in the bay in order to read the sign which
indicated that the vehicle must be parked within the bay. The
driver returned to vehicle and decided to move it. They did not
see or was approached by any person. The parking charge notice
received just provides a time of incident i.e. 1402 there are no
times provided for observation of the vehicle parked. As I
understand it there should be a grace period to be observed in
order to ensure that the terms have been read and agreed to.
I will post up PCN and signs asap
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 56023--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
DIR By: b789
Date: January 31, 2025, 8:27 am
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A close up of the sign is not enough. It also needs to show the
general layout of the parking area and how the signs appear on
approach. As this is in Wales, are you a Welsh speaker? Are the
signs also in Welch?
The Notice to Keeper (NtK) is not PoFA compliant. The Keeper
cannot be liable as long as the unknown driver's identity is not
revealed. There is no legal obligation on the known keeper (the
recipient of the Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the identity
of the unknown driver and no inference or assumptions can be
made.
The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which
means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot
transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the
known keeper.
Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove
anything from it:
--- Quote ---
> I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking
charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I
will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your
client landowner.
>
> As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL
the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper
of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even
substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no
admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions
can be drawn. UKCPM has relied on contract law allegations of
breach against the driver only.
>
> The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have
been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation
of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable.
UKCPM have no hope at IAS, so you are urged to save us both a
complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
--- End Quote ---
Come back when PCMUK reject the appeal for further advice.
#Post#: 56047--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
DIR By: Sander333
Date: January 31, 2025, 10:10 am
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As it happens I am a Welsh Speaker and a number of private car
parks have bilingual signs. I will return to the site shortly
over the next day or so but from my recollection the signs are
not bilingual. Thank you for the advice so far.When is the best
time to send off an appeal is it sooner rather than later.
#Post#: 56049--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: January 31, 2025, 10:15 am
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There's no strategic advantage to be gained from timing your
appeal one way or the other.
#Post#: 56116--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
DIR By: Sander333
Date: February 1, 2025, 5:26 am
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The Registered Keeper has return to the area and has taken
photographs of the area.
What is of particular concern is that the signs which are
interspersed over the area are adjacent to the ground. They are
not fixed and upon inspection can be rotated around the metal
barrier pole so they can be difficult to see especially when
there are vehicles particularly vans which frequent tool station
are parked directly in front of them. If all the parking spaces
were used where the signers are placed you would not see them.
as all vehicles would obstruct the signs being on the floor. If
they were placed higher on the building for example like the
sings for customer only parking then they would probably more
visible. These signs could easily be removed and replaced in a
few seconds. Any views on these observations. As one can see
this sign and others are not in the Welsh language.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 56148--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
DIR By: b789
Date: February 1, 2025, 11:37 am
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It is a joke. There is no way UKCPM can ever hope to recover
anything for this "invoice" they have sent the Keeper. However,
as they are IPC members, you will probably have to drag this out
all the pay to a county court claim.
That is a good thing because the county court is the ultimate
dispute resolution service and if they were to take this all the
way, they would receive a thorough spanking in court. They won't
though. They will try litigation in the hope the you are
low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and will cave in and pay
up once litigation starts, out of ignorance and fear.
For now, simply appeal with the following as the Keeper only
(They have no idea who the driver is unless you tell them and
you are under no legal obligation to do so):
--- Quote ---
> I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking
charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I
will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your
client landowner.
>
> As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL
the requirements of PoFA 2012 or the BPA/IPC Private Parking
Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP), you are unable to hold the
Keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even
substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no
admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions
can be drawn. UKCPM has relied on contract law allegations of
breach against the driver only.
>
> The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have
been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation
of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable.
UKCPM may be relying on the kangaroo court that is the IAS to
back them up over this sham PCN, but the Keeper is quite
prepared to go straight to litigation if it isn’t cancelled and
will be more than happy to see UKCPM humiliated in court should
they be so stupid as to push this that far.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 56205--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
DIR By: Sander333
Date: February 2, 2025, 5:27 am
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Thanks for advice will submit appeal tomorrow morning. Just for
clarification there are no information/warning signs when
entering Industrial Estate to indicate that the area subject to
private parking restrictions.
#Post#: 56226--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
DIR By: b789
Date: February 2, 2025, 8:05 am
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If you can get a phot of the entrance to the parking area
showing no signs, that is worth keeping handy. However, I doubt
that these will ever be needed.
#Post#: 56234--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
DIR By: Sander333
Date: February 2, 2025, 8:35 am
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Yes will take some additional photos as above within the next
day or so.
#Post#: 56383--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
DIR By: Sander333
Date: February 3, 2025, 10:31 am
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Appeal submitted the Registered Keeper has re visited the
Industrial Estate to gather further information. There are two
entrances to enter the estate one entrance has a very small sign
on the offside of the road when entering which is difficult to
read or notice when driving. The other entrance has no signs at
all except a small sign on the wall saying the road is private
under section 31 of the Highways Act 1980 and to use it with
consent of the owner. There are also 20mph speed limit signs at
the entrance. This is totally confusing to say the least. There
are a number of photographs taken for your information and any
observations.
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