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#Post#: 7744--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: October 18, 2023, 6:06 pm
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Can you go and get a tape measure and measure the distance from
the start of 19 to the end of 25?
I reckon there's space for more than 4 cars, in which case the
signage is ambiguous. It doesn't matter if 5 estates wouldn't
fit, as long as 4 average cars could fit behind your car and
before the boundary between numbers 19 and 17, then you cannot
have been in the suspended area.
#Post#: 7796--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
DIR By: gbawekanu
Date: October 19, 2023, 9:28 am
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I just measured the distance between 19 and 25 and the distance
is 21.1 metres.
I found on the website below that the average car length in the
UK is around 4.4 metres.
HTML https://www.nationwidevehiclecontracts.co.uk/guides/ask-nvc/understanding-car-size-and-dimensions#:~:text=What%20is%20standard%20size%20car,1821mm%20wide%2C%20and%201534mm%20tall.
#Post#: 7801--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: October 19, 2023, 10:08 am
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TSRGD puts the minimum length of a parallel parking bay as 4.5m
Even if that figure is used there is still 3.1m spare with 4
"standard" cars parked...or rather not parked.
#Post#: 7805--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
DIR By: gbawekanu
Date: October 19, 2023, 11:17 am
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Thanks DancingDad.
I am planning to send the draft below as my appeal. Any
suggestions please?
"The measured span between the starting point at 19 Atherton
Street and the conclusion at 25 Atherton Street is 21.1 meters.
According to The Traffic Signs Regulations and General
Directions 2016 (TSRGD), a parking bay must have a minimum
length of 4.5 meters. This unequivocally demonstrates that the
vehicle is not situated within the designated area for four
parking spaces as indicated on the suspended parking sign."
#Post#: 7810--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: October 19, 2023, 12:07 pm
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There's got to be a better way of phrasing...not sure what at
the moment?
But minimum length suggest that the council could define each
space as 5.275m.... ie exact 4 spaces for the 21.1m available.
It's the ambiguity that counts for me.
Suspended outside 17 to 25 but no specific limits, the only clue
being 4 car spaces.
Is this centre to centre, edge to edge and if the latter,
leading edge or outside edge or one of each?
TSRGD gives a minimum space length as 4.5m, average UK car is
4.4m, British Parking Association recommends 4.8m for parking
bay length, even if the council allocated 5m per space, it still
doesn't fill the area that the authority seems to be claiming
and means any minimal overlap into "their" space is trivial,
especially as they are not clear on the exact limits.
#Post#: 7814--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
DIR By: Grant Urismo
Date: October 19, 2023, 1:28 pm
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It's going to be difficult to produce definitive evidence about
what exactly 4 car spaces means, so I suggest putting the burden
of doing that on to the council. I'd go with something along the
lines of:
"When I parked my car I read the suspension notice and
diligently made sure that I left the required 4 car spaces
behind me. If the council believe that there were less than 4
car spaces behind my vehicle at the time that I parked, I
require the council to provide me with a copy of whatever
evidence they have that proves this point (including their
definition of the length of a "car space" and the legal argument
they intend to make that justifies this definition) so that I
can make an informed decision about taking this case to the
parking tribunal."
#Post#: 7871--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
DIR By: gbawekanu
Date: October 20, 2023, 9:26 am
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Thanks Grant Urismo
Appeal submitted.
#Post#: 7873--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
DIR By: iispartan
Date: October 20, 2023, 9:44 am
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I had a very similar situation a few years ago and won on appeal
at London tribunal. In summary, the adjudicator sided with me as
on balance there was too much ambiguity around whether a
contravention occurred. I post below an extract of the
adjudicators concluding comments:
The appellant in evidence before me highlighted referring to his
written submissions, videos and photographs that the Traffic
Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 provided at
schedule 7, part 5 paragraphs 2(4) and 2(5) that generally where
bays were divided to indicate a parking space
then the length of the space was not to be less than 4500 with
the maximum length of a parking bay
maybe 6.6 m when considering spaces for disabled badge holders.
Therefore on his calculations
(using videos to demonstrate his calculations and position of
his car) at 4.5 metres, 5 car spaces
would be approx. 22.5 metres and his car was parked at least at
24.1 metres.
I have considered the totality of the evidence before me and I
find that I cannot be satisfied on balance that the signage
which highlight the suspension is adequate or clear for the
purposes of the
authority discharging their duties in demonstrating that the
reasonable driver would have been aware
of the exact length of the suspended bays. There is some
ambiguity as to the length of a bay and further the exact length
of the suspension was not properly marked out end to end in
order to avoid any ambiguity.
I find therefore given the totality of the evidence before me on
balance, which includes lack of
adequate signage and the fact that the Appellant's vehicle is
seen parked at the very edge of what might be the 5 suspended
spaces, then this leads me to the conclude there is some
ambiguity as to
whether there is an actual contravention. For these reasons I
therefore allow the appeal.
#Post#: 7876--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: October 20, 2023, 10:22 am
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--- Quote ---
> I had a very similar situation a few years ago and won on
appeal at London tribunal.
--- End Quote ---
If your case supports the OP it would be helpful for him to have
the case number so he can add it in support of his own case.
#Post#: 7877--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
DIR By: iispartan
Date: October 20, 2023, 10:23 am
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Case Reference: 2210026624
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