DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Speeding and other criminal offences
*****************************************************
#Post#: 55196--------------------------------------------------
x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and
counting ....
DIR By: cybotic
Date: January 26, 2025, 12:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
In August I got x7 speeding tickets over the course of three
grim days.
Offences were spread over 10 days, all on my way home from work,
all on the same stretch of the A40 in London. Limited to 30 mph.
FWIW that stretch of road is an average speed check zone, and
I'd been pootleing at 30mph along for months - watching loads of
people ZOOM past. This is a raised three lane highway, with no
junctions - Gradually I figured the cameras must have been off,
and I let my speed raise. Typically around 34/35 mph. Cameras
surely were off for a period - Then one day they turned back on
again! :o
I do not dispute them - I knew I was chancing it!
So - I'm getting likely 21 points to add to my licence..
Already had 3 points from a few years back - So the total could
be double what you loose your licence for! :(
This is the course of events since then...
I returned all together (by reg. post) and paid all seven
immediately (£700!! :-[ )
[*]I got a written receipts for just 5 of the 7 of them
[*]I later found that two of the £100 fines were reimbursed to
my account (I got no related correspondence, so can't say
categorically which tickets these are for)
In turn, this led to ...
[*] For the first of these offences I did a speed awareness
course.
[*] For three of these offences I've received an SJP notice -
each SJP relates to a single ticket number (URN?) only
[*] I submitted an 'online plea' for each SJP, and clicked
'guilty' on each of these (I provided no written
excuse/explanations)
[*] This leaves 3 out of the seven tickets unaccounted for. Two
might be the ones that were refunded ?! but that would still
leave one unaccounted for.
Result of the three court cases - (so far)...
- The first case resulted in four points and a fine of £794,
totalling £1212 :o
- The second has issued a 'Notice of proposed driving
disqualification'
- Ive heard nothing back from the third (but only submitted
recently on Jan 21st)
I've not yet taken any action regarding (1) & (2) above (ie
paying teh fine and responding to the 'Notice of proposed
driving disqualification')
"Failed to satisfy the requirements"?
One thing i noticed on all of the three SJPs ... it states the
following:
--- Quote ---
>
> "The driver/rider failed to satisfy the requirements of the
Fixed Penalty, the Fixed Penalty was paid, but they failed to
provide their license details for electronic endorsement and a
refund was requested"
> "The driver/rider did not satisfy the requirements of the
Fixed Penalty offer within the specified timeframe. As a result
the offer of a Fixed Penalty has been withdrawn"
>
--- End Quote ---
Both of these statements are incorrect. In all cases I did
provide my licence details, and in all cases I did so within the
required timeframe.
In fact , the SJPs come with a copy of the form originally
submitted form - which clearly shows I have provided my licence
details.
Is something messed up here, by either me or them?
But wait... There's more!
*Ahem!* this is a bit awkward.. I've since been flashed while
driving my car in November. ::) (24mph in a 20 FWIW)
This was replied-to and processed quickly, and got me another
three points on my licence.
Points recap
THis is where I stand today with points : TEN POINTS: three old
ones, three from the car, and four from the first court case:
[table]
[tr]
[td]
[td]
[td]
[td]
[td]
[td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]
[td] Old [/td]
[td]
[td]
[td]
[td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]
[td] Car [/td]
[td]
[td]
[td]
[td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]
[td] Court [/td]
[td]
[td]
[td]
[td]
[/tr]
[/table]
What happens next?
Well - that's where I am up to right now..! - £1712 down, with
one outstanding SJP, two mystery maybe refunded SJPs, two
current court cases, and one outstanding court case!!! *phew!*
Here's a 'few' key questions that I really need help
understanding please:
[*] What caused two of the original £100 payments to be
refunded? Why no correspondence?
[*] Are these tickets all being considered/reviewed in
isolation, or 'together' ? (nothing indicates to me that they
are)
[*] Should I expect another SJP for the remaining three tickets?
(or remain one , if we consider the refunded tickets?!)
[*] What could I expect from the exiting remaining Court Case
(third of three) ? - given that the second was 'proposed driving
disqualification'
[*] Should I go ahead and pay the fine, or should I wait to
understand all the tickets?
[*] What is up with that "failed to satisfy the requirements"
thing? (its just flat-out wrong)
[*] What is difference between 'Penalty point expiry' and
'Endorsement removal'?
[*] Can there be more fines(!) resulting from this process?!?!
[*] How long might I be banned for?
So, if you are still reading... Thanks! Sorry it's such a long
and detailed post!!
I'm really so grateful for any and all advice and experience
that might relate to this :)
I do feel I'm being kind hammered despite being compliant and
honest - but to be fair, I did rack up the points.. It's just
the ongoing uncertainty here that is causing me concern overall
(not to mention the cost!)
(edited to fix formatting)
#Post#: 55214--------------------------------------------------
Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700
and counting ....
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: January 26, 2025, 1:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You've managed to use a lot of words and, even more white space,
to tell us very little of any relevance, and an amount of utter
horse sh1t.
There are 2 valid reasons for a paid COFP to be
refunded/rejected - the most common is the failure to provide
identification details (generally referred to as licence details
on the COFP) to the Fixed Penalty Clerk when accepting the COFP
(as opposed to as part of the s. 172 requirement to name the
driver). The other is being liable to tot up.
Everyone who has a COFP refunded/rejected for the first reason
tells us that they provided their details (in response to the s.
172 requirement) - unless they did a bit of reading (other
threads in this forum, or the elusive fabled "READ THIS FIRST"
post) before posting. You simply telling us that you provided
your details only tells us that you didn't read the "READ THIS
FIRST" post.
You mention paying the fixed penalties in response to the NIPs.
Presumably the NIP/s.172s included COFPs?
For the benefit of anyone else in a similar situation who has
not already potentially painted themselves into a corner before
seeking advice, if totting up is unavoidable due to many, many,
"tickets" it is generally advantageous to have them all heard
together so that regardless of how many points you tot up to,
you only face a single ban, or if you have a viable Exceptional
Hardship argument, you only need to argue EH once (you cannot
use the same EH grounds again for 3 years). If you view the
eligibility for an SAC to be a useful "lifeline" to avoid
points/totting, there is little point in taking an SAC if you
are bound to tot up anyway (you cannot take the same course
again for 3 years).
The SJ will generally not ban you as you have to be given an
opportunity to present any arguments as to why you should not be
banned, and a ban had immediate effect and it is very important
that you know when you are banned - so if a ban is being
considered, either outright for a single offence, or for
totting, the SJ will transfer the process to the Mags' court for
sentencing.
A totting up ban wipes the points up to that point for the
purposes of totting up - which is why it is important to have
all the outstanding cases sentenced together. If you are
sentenced after receiving a totting ban, you get to keep the new
points.
A totting up ban is a minimum of 6 months, unless the court find
that such a ban would cause exceptional hardship (beyond that
which everyone else would expect to suffer), in which case they
can reduce the length, or not ban you at all (in which case you
would still have a third world debt's worth of points on your
licence and any subsequent points in the next 3 years would see
you totting up again. It is rare for totting up bans to be
longer than 6 months, unless you have been banned in the
previous 3 years in which case the minimum is 12 months.
Doris Stokes sadly passed away some time ago.
#Post#: 55249--------------------------------------------------
Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700
and counting ....
DIR By: cybotic
Date: January 26, 2025, 4:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello - I'm grateful for your response - it does indeed answer
some of my questions- thanks.
Sorry for the whitespace.. My post took hours to write, and I
previewed it repeatedly - FWIW The preview did not contain this
resulting whitespace (ill attempt to edit now to improve it)
Honestly , I came here seeking support and guidance - and your
opener of ".... tell us very little of any relevance, and an
amount of utter horse sh1t." is insulting. I had read the
"READ THIS FIRST" post - I didn't understand a great deal of it
- I don't feel you needed to club me over the head with that
either.
To the best of my knowledge I've posted every detail I could
(yeah, lots of words.. I did apologise for the length upfront)
and believed I was being as thorough as possible.
--- Quote ---
> Presumably the NIP/s.172s included COFPs?
--- End Quote ---
NIP : the thing they sent me first
s172: the part where the driver must be named
included COFPs : Yes. And your presumption is correct: I opted
to accept for all.
#Post#: 55254--------------------------------------------------
Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700
and counting ....
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: January 26, 2025, 5:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If you feel insulted by an observation that you posted
horsesh*t, perhaps you might like to consider not posting
horsesh*t.
Your subject heading for this thread includes the headline "24
points". Assuming that that is intended to refer to the total
that you can be expected to tot up to, perhaps you would like to
elucidate on how you arrived at that figure. N.B., by
convention, any number without a stated base is deemed to be
base 10.
You have 10 points already -
3 from prior to your recent run of bad luck,
3 in October from "the car", whatever that is supposed to mean -
which may or may not be related to the fixed penalty for an
offence the following month,
and 4 from one of your rejected COFPs.
That leaves 6 offences/COFPs from August potentially outstanding
Except that you somehow completed an SAC for the first offence
that you paid the fixed penalty for. This is somewhat
unconventional, but more a gaping hole in the narrative than
necessarily horsesh*t. So there are potentially 5 outstanding.
On what basis are you predicting 14 points from the 5
outstanding offences?
If we can't take the information you give us at face value, you
know, like on account of it being horsesh*t, there seems little
point in trying to offer advice based on the information you
give us.
#Post#: 55255--------------------------------------------------
Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700
and counting ....
DIR By: cybotic
Date: January 26, 2025, 6:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Assuming that that is intended to refer to the total that you
can be expected to tot up to, perhaps you would like to
elucidate on how you arrived at that figure
--- End Quote ---
Assumption correct! this 'ballpark figure' was arrived at based
on:
3 points - my previous existing from years back
7 new tickets (sorry, they'll always be tickets to me) at 3
points each.
It was simply an attempt to illustrate what I perceive as the
magnitude of my situation, rather than a resolute summation of
the literal points tally. (That was provided later in the
handy table!)
--- Quote ---
>
> You have 10 points already -
> 3 from prior to your recent run of bad luck,
> 3 in October from "the car", whatever that is supposed to mean
- which may or may not be related to the fixed penalty for an
offence the following month,
> and 4 from one of your rejected COFPs.
>
--- End Quote ---
correct! this is what my handy table attempted to elucidate.
In my oh-so-amusingly entitled paragraph "But wait... There's
more!" - I had highlighted the additional "Car" offence.
I should point out that everything else here relates, in fact,
to my motorbike, and having just re-read my original post I
realise that I did not mention that at all - anywhere. I can
see how this missing fact does take the reference to 'the car'
into the realms of mysticism (or indeed hosesh1t)
However, armed with the knowledge that this is all with respect
to my motorbike - I'm sure you will be among the first to agree
that everything now makes perfect sense! :)
I do not have (and never have had) any real idea what actual
points I can expect to 'end up with' from this saga.
--- Quote ---
>
> That leaves 6 offences/COFPs from August potentially
outstanding
> Except that you somehow completed an SAC for the first offence
that you paid the fixed penalty for. This is somewhat
unconventional, but more a gaping hole in the narrative than
necessarily horsesh*t. So there are potentially 5 outstanding.
>
--- End Quote ---
I've attached an image of the spreadsheet I've been working
from. Not sure if it helps or hinders. [attach=1]
7 offences on the bike - one completed SAC (no payment) 6
outstanding
1 offence in the car - paid & completed with 3 points
One other thing - I've seen in other posts
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/have-i-been-caught/msg54771/#msg54771<br
/>on this site that "... police have six months from the
offence
date to bring proceedings".
It is now more than six months since the date of all my
outstanding offences. WOuld the above statement apply to my
three remaining offences (I've accepted a COFP for each) for
which I have not yet received an SJP ?
(edited to fix £$^*@ing formatting!)
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 55257--------------------------------------------------
Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700
and counting ....
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: January 26, 2025, 6:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Depends on whether the police have already instigated
proceedings.
#Post#: 55357--------------------------------------------------
Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700
and counting ....
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: January 27, 2025, 8:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cybotic link ---
>
>
>
> ... "Failed to satisfy the requirements"?
> One thing i noticed on all of the three SJPs ... it states the
following:
> [quote]
> "The driver/rider failed to satisfy the requirements of the
Fixed Penalty, the Fixed Penalty was paid, but they failed to
provide their license details for electronic endorsement and a
refund was requested"
> "The driver/rider did not satisfy the requirements of the
Fixed Penalty offer within the specified timeframe. As a result
the offer of a Fixed Penalty has been withdrawn"
>
--- End Quote ---
Both of these statements are incorrect. In all cases I did
provide my licence details, and in all cases I did so within the
required timeframe.
In fact , the SJPs come with a copy of the form originally
submitted form - which clearly shows I have provided my licence
details.
Is something messed up here, by either me or them?...
- What caused two of the original £100 payments to be refunded?
Why no correspondence?
- What is up with that "failed to satisfy the requirements"
thing? (its just flat-out wrong)
[/quote]
When you attempted to pay the Fixed Penalties did you read
properly the conditions attached to them?
One of them will be that you are required to provide your
driving licence details - again. Did you do so?
The fact that you will have already provided your DL details
when identifying yourself as the driver in response to the s172
request is irrelevant. You need to supply your DL details again
when accepting the fixed penalty, otherwise it will be rejected
and refunded to you because you haven't complied with the terms
of the offer.
#Post#: 55425--------------------------------------------------
Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700
and counting ....
DIR By: cybotic
Date: January 27, 2025, 2:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> When you attempted to pay the Fixed Penalties did you read
properly the conditions attached to them?
>
> One of them will be that you are required to provide your
driving licence details - again. Did you do so?
>
> The fact that you will have already provided your DL details
when identifying yourself as the driver in response to the s172
request is irrelevant. You need to supply your DL details again
when accepting the fixed penalty, otherwise it will be rejected
and refunded to you because you haven't complied with the terms
of the offer
--- End Quote ---
So the first things I sent were the NIPs, right? this is
essential to post - ie no online option? I sent all of those at
once - registered post.
From that point on, I've done everything online.
Then, paying the fixed penalties (this is the COFP, right?) I
completed all seven the same way (at least as far as I know)
Did I read them properly - yes.
Did I miss something on two of them? possibly, but unlikely as I
had to do seven. No way of telling now.
SO this might really be a case of "you didn’t fill in a form
right, so we're going to shaft you even more"? Charming! as if
seven offences wasn't enough.
I'm really regretting doing the online submissions for the COFP
and for the SJPs, as I've no record to refer back to .
#Post#: 55472--------------------------------------------------
Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700
and counting ....
DIR By: 666
Date: January 28, 2025, 12:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cybotic link ---
>
> [quote]When you attempted to pay the Fixed Penalties did you
read properly the conditions attached to them?
>
> One of them will be that you are required to provide your
driving licence details - again. Did you do so?
>
> The fact that you will have already provided your DL details
when identifying yourself as the driver in response to the s172
request is irrelevant. You need to supply your DL details again
when accepting the fixed penalty, otherwise it will be rejected
and refunded to you because you haven't complied with the terms
of the offer
--- End Quote ---
So the first things I sent were the NIPs, right? this is
essential to post - ie no online option? I sent all of those at
once - registered post.
From that point on, I've done everything online.
[/quote]
Registered post hasn't existed for years. What service did you
really use?
#Post#: 55505--------------------------------------------------
Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700
and counting ....
DIR By: BertB
Date: January 28, 2025, 5:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
COFPs. You make payment online and then send back the completed
form including your D/L details on it.
You say after the NIPs you did everything online? I don't know
if it has changed, but does what you completed online allow
provision to provide your D/L details? it never used to.
From your summary of points so far, it doesn't look like any of
the 'bike' COFPs have been processed, other than the two
rejected and the one that went to court. However this must be
from a different timeline? You may get more rejected and
refunded if you used the same method and response on all. It
does not stand to reason at the moment if everything was done
identical, two would be different.
I know this information is probably in the thread, buried in
amongst the 10,000 word essays, however I'm confused about:
1 x existing 3 points
1 x Car COFP 3 points. This must be from an earlier timeline.
1 x Mag court sentence 4 points. The timeframes also dictate
this must be from an earlier offence.
Then we have 5(?) COFPs for the Bike, of which two have been
refunded and three not know at this stage?
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 2
DIR Next Page