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#Post#: 62365--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: samosa
Date: March 13, 2025, 12:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
So here's the latest update.....
On 20/02/2025 I responded to Southwark with the following
response:
"I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time the
contravention occurred
Reason: This vehicle has never been owned by me. I am not the
owner of the vehicle. It is a hire car rented to XXXX Ltd, of
XXXX address"
The "reason" option was a pre-populated option and could not be
amended - hence I was unable to remove the "hire car rented to"
part of the line. In place of the "XXXX" above I provided the
details of my Ltd company.
On 10/03/2025 Southwark replied by email with the following
letter:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qipll7lAD_8Ovrj0H7aPUwzFgnaWSITc/view?usp=sharing
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qipll7lAD_8Ovrj0H7aPUwzFgnaWSITc/view?usp=sharing
I am unable to provide a hire agreement they have requested
because the vehicle in question was a courtesy car provided by
my BMW dealership whilst my company car went in for a
recall/maintenance issue. However by the look of it, Southwark
wont change the name on the PCN unless I give them what they
want.
What shall I do now?
#Post#: 62366--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: samosa
Date: March 13, 2025, 12:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> Excellent: a threat which will go against them! Stick it in
the file. More than happy to deal with this one at the fifth set
if necessary.
>
> They are one of three with similar issues! Just won one v
Lambeth today.
>
--- End Quote ---
So here's the latest update.....
On 20/02/2025 I responded to Southwark with the following
response:
"I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time the
contravention occurred
Reason: This vehicle has never been owned by me. I am not the
owner of the vehicle. It is a hire car rented to XXXX Ltd, of
XXXX address"
The "reason" option was a pre-populated option and could not be
amended - hence I was unable to remove the "hire car rented to"
part of the line. In place of the "XXXX" above I provided the
details of my Ltd company.
On 10/03/2025 Southwark replied by email with the following
letter:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qipll7lAD_8Ovrj0H7aPUwzFgnaWSITc/view?usp=sharing
I am unable to provide a hire agreement they have requested
because the vehicle in question was a courtesy car provided by
my BMW dealership whilst my company car went in for a
recall/maintenance issue. However by the look of it, Southwark
wont change the name on the PCN unless I give them what they
want.
What shall I do now?
#Post#: 62589--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: samosa
Date: March 14, 2025, 4:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Any suggestions anyone? :-\
#Post#: 62633--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: March 15, 2025, 5:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Has a Notice to Owner been issued and received?
#Post#: 62668--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: samosa
Date: March 15, 2025, 10:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> Has a Notice to Owner been issued and received?
>
--- End Quote ---
The NTO addressed to me (in my personal name was received in Feb
2025. I made the representation that I was not the owner of
the vehicle at the time on their website and I provided my LTD
company details as the party they should be addressing the PCN
to. Southwark replied to me on 20/02/2025 requesting an hire
agreement (suggesting they will not readdress the NTO without
this) which I am unable to provide for the reasons explained in
my previous post. I have yet to receive the NTO in my company
name.
What should I do?
#Post#: 63334--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: samosa
Date: March 20, 2025, 3:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Any suggestions anyone?
#Post#: 63361--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 20, 2025, 5:46 am
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OP, for some reason I can't access the docs through the link in
your first post.
Anyway, the council's letter states: 'if you do nothing..we will
send you a Notice of Rejection..'
So, do nothing as regards Southwark and wait for the NOR.
This NTO is a total nonsense IMO.
As I see the key issues regarding procedure:
Your company leases a vehicle from BMW for the company's use
subject to the Ts and Cs of the lease agreement between the
parties, namely your company and BMW;
Within your company, this is allocated to you to drive subject
to your company's terms and conditions;
I presume that BMW arrange for servicing;
The BMW/company Ts and Cs provide for a replacement vehicle when
the lease vehicle is not available;
The vehicle went in for service, pursuant to BMW's arrangements
and BMW hired a vehicle from wherever pursuant to the lease
agreement Ts and Cs;
Question: did you collect this vehicle when you took the lease
vehicle in to the nominated garage or was it delivered to you?
In either case, what documents did you personally sign? In the
alternative, what
was signed by BMW and do you have copies of either?
You received a NTO dated *** with you named as addressee. Was
this your name and personal address or name and company address?
OP, over to you.
#Post#: 64888--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: samosa
Date: March 30, 2025, 1:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> OP, for some reason I can't access the docs through the link
in your first post.
>
> Anyway, the council's letter states: 'if you do nothing..we
will send you a Notice of Rejection..'
>
> So, do nothing as regards Southwark and wait for the NOR.
>
> This NTO is a total nonsense IMO.
>
> As I see the key issues regarding procedure:
>
> Your company leases a vehicle from BMW for the company's use
subject to the Ts and Cs of the lease agreement between the
parties, namely your company and BMW;
>
> Within your company, this is allocated to you to drive subject
to your company's terms and conditions;
>
> I presume that BMW arrange for servicing;
>
> The BMW/company Ts and Cs provide for a replacement vehicle
when the lease vehicle is not available;
>
> The vehicle went in for service, pursuant to BMW's
arrangements and BMW hired a vehicle from wherever pursuant to
the lease agreement Ts and Cs;
>
> Question: did you collect this vehicle when you took the lease
vehicle in to the nominated garage or was it delivered to you?
>
> In either case, what documents did you personally sign? In the
alternative, what
> was signed by BMW and do you have copies of either?
>
> You received a NTO dated *** with you named as addressee. Was
this your name and personal address or name and company address?
>
> OP, over to you.
>
--- End Quote ---
Many thanks for replying. What you have assumed is broadly
correct,
As you were unable to access the links provided originally, here
a summary of everything to date together with fresh links to the
relevant documents:
1. 22-11-2024
Here is the agreement I signed for the “Temporary Hire Car”.
The document states that I (my personal name) am the "authorised
driver”. It does not reference my Ltd company anywhere on the
document.
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w5u2YrMqf8teCP9RdzBP0mI2PnENPLn-/view?usp=sharing
Fortunately this document does make reference to “Customer Reg
Number”. I have an invoice from the leasing company which
matches the registration number shown in this document. But is
that sufficient evidence to prove that the hire car was a
temporary replacement for my leased car?
2. 24-11-24
The PCN is issued to the “Temporary Hire Car”. Whilst the
photos provided by Southwark show the PCN attached to the
windscreen, when I returned the ticket was nowhere to be seen.
It was certainly NOT attached to the car.
3. 17-01-2025
Here's the 1st NTO issued to the company who owns the "Temporary
Hire Car” which received the PCN :
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WPka0mM-JbgWGNnDnCK-S4piIVWS2v4m/view?usp=sharing
4. 07-02-2025
The NTO was reissued to me (my personal name) - I presume this
is because the hire company provided my name as the “driver of
the vehicle”.
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vqLfzKSPRXd28Mpd3xyBZoWRFJjBLe5n/view?usp=sharing
Whilst I acknowledge I was the driver of the vehicle, any
parking fines were the responsibility of my LTD company:
5. 10-03-25
Southwark requested a copy of the “hire agreement” with my LTD
company. However I have no such document. The only written
correspondence I have is the agreement dated 22/11/2024 (see no.
1 above) which does not reference my LTD company (only reference
my personal name as the driver of the vehicle)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wBN-8tUgCFLAW_cPHhS6GaXC9XolvlVi/view?usp=sharing
6. 24-03-2025
Notice of Rejection addressed to me (my personal name):
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vpLVJKxFSxG17MQ9ueuogSwzie0QMJcX/view?usp=sharing
Where do I stand now? What action should I take now?
#Post#: 65453--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: samosa
Date: April 2, 2025, 1:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Any thoughts anyone?
#Post#: 65521--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: April 3, 2025, 7:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
1. Take a screenshot of their payment status and report back.
2. You now have a NOR so you must decide to appeal or not.
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